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Mike Hendren

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A Simple Berm And Trench
« on: October 10, 2006, 03:38:31 PM »
This photograph from Dan Moore's Spring Valley CC thread caught my eye.



Assuming sand in front of the bank, why aren't these bunkers being built today?  Simple construction.  Easy to maintain.  Works on any soil type.  Looks cool.  Thrilling to carry.

Wait, it's not natural!

Mike
« Last Edit: October 10, 2006, 03:51:31 PM by Bogey_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

BCrosby

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Re:A Simple Berm And Trench
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2006, 05:09:47 PM »
Bogey -

There are two reasons that it might not work - (a) it's not flashy enough and (b) there will be drainage issues in clay soils.

I'm kidding about (a).  

I like it very much. Easy to build, a no-brainer to maintain. I wish there was a hole like it at my course.

Bob

TEPaul

Re:A Simple Berm And Trench
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2006, 05:22:18 PM »
"Wait, it's not natural!"

Bogey:

Youv'e pretty much got it Pal. ;)

That kind of hazard feature was really prevalent in the old days of architecture when golf first migrated out of Scotland and into inland England, Ireland, the USA and around the world in the late 19th century and early 20th century. Sometimes that type of feature was called a "cop" bunker in golf. Most everyone did them in the early days including even Donald Ross.

Where did that style or type of obstacle or hazard feature emanate from? That's a good question but if you've ever seen a steeplechase water pit and berm feature it's pretty hard to miss the extreme similarity.

Apparently the early golf course erectors simply used sand in place of the water in the pits that fronting the berms of steeplechasing courses.

Why did steeplechasing have geometric water pits?  For the simple reason they mimicked a stream horses and riders went through. And why did those geometric (rectangular) water pits front big earthen berms? Because those big earthen berms mimicked the stream banks on the sides of streams the horse and rider had to jump out of the stream and over.

Can you see any reason why something like that wouldn't conveniently work as the first rudimentary man-made hazard features for golfers to have to hit a golf ball over in the very beginning of golf course architecure outside the Scottish linksland on inland sites wholly unsuited for golf as it had been played for centuries almost exclusively in linksland Scotland that was naturally suited for golf almost without any help at all from golf architecture?  ;)

Mark Bourgeois

Re:A Simple Berm And Trench
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2006, 06:14:08 PM »
TEPaul,

Very interesting.  I have been reading about the first course at Woodhall Spa (the Hotchkin actually is the *third*), where mention was made of lateral hazards employed in the late 1800s.

The reason given was the ball; a bad shot would scoot along the ground but travel nearly as far as a ball hit through the air.  Architects felt this shot should be penalized, hence rudimentary lateral hazards such as cops.

Yes?

Mark

TEPaul

Re:A Simple Berm And Trench
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2006, 06:55:32 PM »
"The reason given was the ball; a bad shot would scoot along the ground but travel nearly as far as a ball hit through the air.  Architects felt this shot should be penalized, hence rudimentary lateral hazards such as cops.

Yes?"

Mark:

That may have been some rationale but I doubt it was all that well thought through back then.

First of all, golf of that type (the first inland sites) generally didn't have much in the way of natural topography or natural obstacle features for golf as the linksland had naturally so they had to be created by man.

On holes like those rudimentary flat ones back then with enormous "cop" bunkers and berms stretched all the way across fairways the only strategy was distance related and not direction related. This type of thing hugely favored the good player and hugely penalized the not good player as back then EVERYONE played from the same tee marker.

That type of one dimensional golf and golf architecture developed into a situation where eventually something had to give and that's just what happened.

It may have taken up to 20-30 years after golf first migrated out of the linksland into inland sites ill suited to golf and with what that rudimentary architecture produced but eventually they came to figure out it was a lot more interesting to give everyone what they called "some way around",  and basically the concept of "strategic" golf architecture was born and that so-called "penal" school of architecture began to become increasingly unpopular.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2006, 07:12:45 PM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

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Re:A Simple Berm And Trench
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2006, 07:13:39 PM »
Welcome back....and you seem sharper than ever!

I think you are really starting to nail early design as it occurred out of the links.....I think that at first, it was simple forms following simple functions ...and then it progressed to more decorative, elaborate or 'natural' forms following a demand for more varied functions.
Throw in a pinch of strategic yeast and before you know it you've baked a golden aged cupcake!

....I think I am going to surprise you with a laptop this Xmas so you can take it on trips, we tend to worry around here with your long lapses.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 04:56:13 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

John Kavanaugh

Re:A Simple Berm And Trench
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2006, 08:47:57 PM »
I saw Paul and was sure he was going to mention the bunkers at Kinderlou Forest...I seem to remember those.

Mike Hendren

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Re:A Simple Berm And Trench
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2006, 08:48:12 PM »
Bob,

On clay soil, why couldn't you just dump a pile of sand in front of the wall and spread it out?  Replenish occasionally. Really nastify that thing.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Simple Berm And Trench
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2006, 02:41:13 AM »
I saw Paul and was sure he was going to mention the bunkers at Kinderlou Forest...I seem to remember those.

Johns right...I could have said " wait a minute Mike, we still make these....Kinderlou Forest has quite a few, and hell, at the Patriot we started digging trenches that got so big they became moats....some up to 35'."

... I guess I got carried away after seeing TP's first posts in a week or more......and then again, this kind of bunker is not the quite the stylistic rage nowadays....maybe we should go back and lace up the faces a bit and grow the surrounds out a little hairy-er. ;)



« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 04:39:42 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Simple Berm And Trench
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2006, 03:09:53 AM »

It may have taken up to 20-30 years after golf first migrated out of the linksland into inland sites ill suited to golf and with what that rudimentary architecture produced but eventually they came to figure out it was a lot more interesting to give everyone what they called "some way around",  and basically the concept of "strategic" golf architecture was born and that so-called "penal" school of architecture began to become increasingly unpopular.


Tom P

The idea of strategy as you describe it was born long before the popularity of inland tracks in England etc.  TOC had plenty of "go around" or centerline hazards by 1875ish.  It would be interesting to discover the first archie that fully grasped the concept of strategic hazards and ran with it.  Even Fowler (and perhaps Park?) was still building plenty of cross bunkers (throwback to TOC before it was widened?) well into the 20th century.  When did cross bunkering finally fall out of favour with the most influential designers?  Was it Dr. Mac & Colt who didn't care for them?  How did Macdonald feel about cross bunkers?

My home course, Droitwich, effectively still uses many "berm & trench" bunkers because of clay soil combined with a high water table.  I don't like them, but ya have to work with the land.

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 03:12:02 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Chechesee Creek & Old Barnwell

TEPaul

Re:A Simple Berm And Trench
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2006, 05:13:19 AM »
Sean:

I think you're missing my drift on the beginnings of strategic design.

Of course TOC became the original model of "strategic" golf after the original narrow hole corridors were widened through clearing thereby creating wide corridors with natural obstacles scattered throughout.

That characteristic, however, was obviously not copied or even understood for a number of decades on inland sites in England, Ireland, the USA and around the world in the latter part of the 19th century and into the beginning of the 20th century. If it had been prevalently copied and well understood obviously that famous Woking bunker of Patton and Low would not have become so famous.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Simple Berm And Trench
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2006, 09:10:36 AM »
Sean:

I think you're missing my drift on the beginnings of strategic design.

Of course TOC became the original model of "strategic" golf after the original narrow hole corridors were widened through clearing thereby creating wide corridors with natural obstacles scattered throughout.

That characteristic, however, was obviously not copied or even understood for a number of decades on inland sites in England, Ireland, the USA and around the world in the latter part of the 19th century and into the beginning of the 20th century. If it had been prevalently copied and well understood obviously that famous Woking bunker of Patton and Low would not have become so famous.

Tom P.

I am not so sure you are entirely correct.  TOC was not so widely loved at first for its "strategic" merits.  Some folks lamented the death of the old Old Course.  This is not to say that "strategic" hazards were not understood.  I very much think they were.  Standing on the 1st of Machrihanish is proof of that.  The issue is more on a sliding scale rather black and white.  

Ciao

« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 09:11:02 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Chechesee Creek & Old Barnwell

TEPaul

Re:A Simple Berm And Trench
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2006, 09:35:59 AM »
Sean:

I really don't know what you mean by that but I'll tell you one thing I really do think is bullshit----and that is this notion that some on here might have that all that rudimentary, geometric so-called Victorian golf architectural crap was designed and built that way because man thought when golf first migrated out of the linksland that he had discovered a far better way for golf to be played and courses to be than they way it was and had been in the linksland.

T_MacWood

Re:A Simple Berm And Trench
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2006, 10:26:28 AM »
Sean
You're right. A couple of big names who are now icons of strategic golf - Horace Hutchinson and John Low - were very fond of the old Old Course. And in the early part of the 20th C there were steps taken to try to recapture some of its bite.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 10:26:56 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:A Simple Berm And Trench
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2006, 04:38:05 PM »
"Sean
You're right. A couple of big names who are now icons of strategic golf - Horace Hutchinson and John Low - were very fond of the old Old Course. And in the early part of the 20th C there were steps taken to try to recapture some of its bite."

Tom MacWood:

Interesting. Would you say the steps taken to recapture some of TOC's 'bite' could be considered a powerful "Arts and Crafts" restoration project? And if so could you go into some architectural detail of what was done in the project? Did they like get Gertrude Jekyll to design an English "wild" garden in the Road Hole's railroad sheds or something?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:A Simple Berm And Trench
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2006, 08:07:27 PM »
Mike,

I like the feature for a few reasons.

First, it feeds balls into the bunker.

Second, because once in the bunker it provides a substantive impediment to advancing the ball.  It clearly interferes with and redetermines the exiting flight of the ball.

Third, it can hide other features.

Fourth, it can make the feature appear to be closer to the green than it really is.

I tend to discount the drainage issue when discussing the above ground berm.  While some surface water will be fed into the bunker, if it has good drainage to start with the additional run-off from the berm won't hurt it.

Again, I think these type of features add character and intereest, along with challenge.

T_MacWood

Re:A Simple Berm And Trench
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2006, 11:03:09 PM »
Sean:

I really don't know what you mean by that but I'll tell you one thing I really do think is bullshit----and that is this notion that some on here might have that all that rudimentary, geometric so-called Victorian golf architectural crap was designed and built that way because man thought when golf first migrated out of the linksland that he had discovered a far better way for golf to be played and courses to be than they way it was and had been in the linksland.

TE
I'm glad to see you are still consumed with the A&C movement...it was fascinating period.

I think you'd be surprised to read some of the comments about the merits of the formulaic designs....I just recently found a review written by Harold Hilton which praised its superiority. I'm not sure when he eventually saw the light.

TEPaul

Re:A Simple Berm And Trench
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2006, 08:07:26 AM »
"I think you'd be surprised to read some of the comments about the merits of the formulaic designs....I just recently found a review written by Harold Hilton which praised its superiority. I'm not sure when he eventually saw the light."

Tom MacWood:

Well good for you on reading that Hilton article, but, no, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest, and I haven't been for years. I've read that article, and I've read a number of 19th century articles praising the superiority of some of that formulaic, rudimentary Victorian, Dark Age, geometric, steeplechase like or penal design.

In my opinion, those sentiments were purely knee-jerk reactions due to a couple of factors.

First, it was a reaction to the constant refrain out of Scotland of "Nae links, nae golf", that was a result of the incredibly ill-suited sites for both golf and agronomy that were being used inland in England, Ireland, the USA and around the world. That Scottish refrain, if anything, was certainly embarrassing to those utilizing those rudimentary features in architecture on inland sites outside Scotland. But certainly it took some time for either side to appreciate the extent of it.

Second, it was nothing more than defensive rationalization under the guise of national hubris and pride emanating from that constant old national dog that "we are better than you are" that if you haven't noticed almost completely saddled golf itself in those early years of golf competitons that were so fixating for whole nations striving to top one another in those days (eventually leading to the unbelievable crucible of WW1). It culminated in golf in the Travis win in 1904 and the resulting Schnectedy putter controversy where national pride ran amok and even good friendships were ruined, the newspapers were crowing like roosters and even the President of the United States became involved in it all.

Your assumption and contention that those early rudimentary courses and rudimentary architectural features were somehow the result or on some model of the products and the mentality of the Industrial Revolution complete with its dehumanized labor force is positively ridiculous.

What exactly were they copying from the Industrial Revolution when they made square flat greens and cop bunkers inland that looked exactly like steeplechase obstacle features?

The fact that man inherently tends to make straight and defined lines in various things went back thousands of years anyway and in golf architecture at that time only indicated that golf architecture was taking its first baby steps and hadn't advanced any further outside Scotland for a few decades.

As Behr said, at that point, they took just the game out of Scotland for the first time not noticing that they had left behind the real essence of it----eg its highly natural linkland sites perfectly suited in a natural sense to golf without even the application of golf course architecture. At that point golf architecture itself had hardly been born.

That's not remotely similar to the incredibly dynamic and productive albeit somewhat destructive and dehumanizing engine of the Industrial Revolution.

You've said that those early rudimentary architectural features were cheap, as were many of the products of the Industrial Revolution and that that was the reason those early rudimentary golf architecture features looked as they did? So what? Steeplechase jump obstacles that looked exactly like earthen pits and berms of Victorian golf architecture were cheap to construct too.

Do you also think the Industrial Revolution spawned the style and look of steeplechase obstacle features and was a powerful influence on it? Because if you do you don't know much more about the early years of golf architecture and its evolution than you do about steeplechasing and its evolution.  ;) :)

 
« Last Edit: October 12, 2006, 08:21:20 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:A Simple Berm And Trench
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2006, 08:35:05 AM »

I really don't know what you mean by that but I'll tell you one thing I really do think is bullshit----and that is this notion that some on here might have that all that rudimentary, geometric so-called Victorian golf architectural crap was designed and built that way because man thought when golf first migrated out of the linksland that he had discovered a far better way for golf to be played and courses to be than they way it was and had been in the linksland.

I don't follow your last post...you appear to be bouncing all over the place...what Hilton article have you read?

Perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying. I was responding to your post quoted above...that your understanding is incorrect....Hilton - and others - claimed the mechanical course was a better test, they had discovered a far better way for golf to be played.

The two reasons most often cited: 1) links golf involved too much luck...whereas the better golfer always prevailed on the mechanical course 2) the length of holes was haphazrard on links golf, whereas the mechanical golf course had the proper number of full one-shot, two-shot and three-shot holes. Full being operative word.

The idea that a golf hole should require a full shot (or combination of full shots) was a big deal at the turn of the century...another topic of heated debate.


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