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Jamey Bryan

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Favorite "type" of hole; ie short par 4, etc.
« on: October 02, 2006, 09:02:42 PM »
I'm wondering if there's any consensus on the best "type" of hole, and I'd be interested in examples.

Examples:  13 or 15 at AGNGC for risk/reward par 5
        12 at AGNGC for short par 3 with same
        18 at Pebble for a strategic closing hole

My home course has a 310 yard par 4 which recently played to an average of 4.3 during qualifying rounds for a regional 4ball, and a par 3 which, if the pin is front, the best play is not to hit the green (front fringe is best).  Both are fair and yield birdies when played well, but require very precise shots and putts.

Favorites?


         

Kevin Pallier

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Re:Favorite "type" of hole; ie short par 4, etc.
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2006, 10:40:50 PM »
Jamey

I like the short P4 followed by the short iron P3

some examples of the former =
Kingston Heath...3rd
St. Andrews Beach (Gunnamatta)...2nd
Royal Adelaide...3rd

some examples of the later (where conditions have a big influence) =
Royal Troon...8th
Pebble Beach...7th
Yarra Yarra...11th
13th Beach...16th

there are many others









Evan_Green

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Re:Favorite "type" of hole; ie short par 4, etc.
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2006, 11:50:13 PM »
Jamey

I personally favor short par 4's - particularly those that look easy but play hard.

#7 at Olympic Lake is a personal favorite - looks very simple - straightaway and 288 yards - but there is venom (and a great deal of fun) in that green complex. Very easy to make 3 or 5 on.

Weiskopf and Weiskopf/Morrish courses have several examples of short par 4's I have enjoyed.

Oh yeah, and that one at Cypress Point, #9... that one's pretty good too  ;)

I also really like short par 5's that are legitimately reachable and dangerous. To me one of the most exciting moments of a round of golf is hitting a 3 wood to the green on a par 5 frought with danger. #11 at Sawgrass fits the bill in this regard. Also liked #10 at Princeville Prince. While I havent seen it in person, #13 at ANGC is the prototype of what I'm talking about. #18 at Pebble Beach (while not reachable by me in two unless way downwind) is a darn good one for a big hitter too.

I've noticed that Nicklaus courses in general have some good risk reward par 5's.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2006, 11:55:22 PM by Evan_Green »

Mark Pearce

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Re:Favorite "type" of hole; ie short par 4, etc.
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2006, 04:07:33 AM »
But short par 4s would be boring (however good) without long par 4s.  Short iron par 3s would tire without "short" holes demanding long irons.  Golf is a game of variety.  Yes, I enjoy a short par 4 when it crops up in the round because of the variety it offers.  I don't have a "favourite" type of hole, I just prefer good ones.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tom_Doak

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Re:Favorite "type" of hole; ie short par 4, etc.
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2006, 06:46:10 PM »
Jamey:

My favorite types are the short par-4, followed by the long par-4.

The one which is becoming extinct is the short par-5.  You seldom ever see a hole like 13 at Augusta anymore, and when you do, it's a par 4!  The overreaction to length has wiped the 510-yard par five off the charts, and I miss them.

George Pazin

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Re:Favorite "type" of hole; ie short par 4, etc.
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2006, 07:18:17 PM »
I like par 3s around 180-200 yards. Or maybe 160-180 if they're uphill.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

wsmorrison

Re:Favorite "type" of hole; ie short par 4, etc.
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2006, 07:26:48 PM »
Tom Doak,

What is your feeling of short par 5s for members (485-510) that are played as par 4s for scratch players not named Tom Paul?  Have you and how would you design a hole that works well as either par 4 or 5 depending upon the player?  

Seems to me that NGLA has a couple as does Rolling Green (7 and 18 from the original tee).  Merion and Pine Valley's two par 5s each were designed to be unreachable but they work well given the variety of short and long par 4s.

Shinnecock Hills has the reachable par 5 fifth and even the 16th can be depending upon the wind.  Do you think there is room to move a tee back on 16--maybe 35 yards or so?

Bill Gayne

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Re:Favorite "type" of hole; ie short par 4, etc.
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2006, 09:47:02 PM »
My favorite hole is #9 at County Down. I guess that means I like long par fours with blind tee shots on links courses. I love the eye candy when you reach the summit of the hill. There's also bunkers in the fairway. A truly great golf hole.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Favorite "type" of hole; ie short par 4, etc.
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2006, 12:33:19 AM »
Jamey:

My favorite types are the short par-4, followed by the long par-4.

The one which is becoming extinct is the short par-5.  You seldom ever see a hole like 13 at Augusta anymore, and when you do, it's a par 4!  The overreaction to length has wiped the 510-yard par five off the charts, and I miss them.


They aren't extinct from the regular tees, are they?  If they become extinct from the tips, is it really a big deal?  The 510 yarder of 1980 is the 540 yarder of today...

Besides, if you like a 510 yard hole when its a par 5, is there something wrong with it when the card says its a par 4?  That's more of a score & pencil attitude than I'd expect from you :)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Jason Blasberg

Re:Favorite "type" of hole; ie short par 4, etc.
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2006, 12:53:43 AM »
Any hole on which an Albatrose is reasonably possible is my "favorite" type of hole.  

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Favorite "type" of hole; ie short par 4, etc.
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2006, 01:07:10 AM »
Then you should really like this one hole at a club around here that's a shortish par 5 that's horseshoe shaped, where it was possible to bust a really big drive in the right wind and get to the green, and, presumably, the hole for whatever a triple eagle is called.

With today's high flying long carrying equipment I don't know if I'd even need a driver to do it, though the trees next to the teebox are now way too tall to have any chance at it anyway.  But you could always suggest a tree removal program to them ;D
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Favorite "type" of hole; ie short par 4, etc.
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2006, 08:16:37 AM »
Doug:

I don't believe that 540 is "the new 510".  540 is pretty much always out of range for the club golfer, 510 wasn't.  And have you seen any 500-yard par-4's designed like the 13th at Augusta?  At that length, architects fall into the trap of thinking they need bigger greens and more room around them to be fair.

Wayne:

I've seen those holes with different pars on the card.  I don't understand what is the big deal about it, why they just don't call them par fives for everyone -- if they did, a three would be a lot more exciting and the shot to the green would be a lot more tempting, yet the guy who couldn't get there would still be fine.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Favorite "type" of hole; ie short par 4, etc.
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2006, 08:25:11 AM »
favourite short par 4 - the 320 yard 14th at county louth (baltray)...

favourite short par 5 - the 490 yard 17th at hazlehead no.1 (a public course in the north east of scotland that hardly any of you will have heard of... green fee £11 last i checked... but it is a mackenzie design and some of the holes rival any inland holes i've seen - quite lovely)

wsmorrison

Re:Favorite "type" of hole; ie short par 4, etc.
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2006, 09:43:36 AM »
"Wayne:

I've seen those holes with different pars on the card.  I don't understand what is the big deal about it, why they just don't call them par fives for everyone -- if they did, a three would be a lot more exciting and the shot to the green would be a lot more tempting, yet the guy who couldn't get there would still be fine."

I would agree with this, Tom if there was no handicapping.  Maybe my analysis is faulty, but here's my take:

The definition of par seems to counter this argument and has a resulting effect on handicapping.  Par is the likely score of a scratch golfer so short par 5s that average 4.4 or less for scratch players (except the unusually short-off-the-tee Tom Paul) should be a par 4 for them.  Even though such holes may be relatively easy, these should be among the lower handicap holes on the course with bogey golfers averaging a stroke or more higher.  This is why I think it is OK to have two different pars for the scratch and bogey golfer.  Better that than changing the hole for the worse by adding tees that disconnect the strategy as with the back tee on 18 at Rolling Green or a prime example the 12th at the Old Course at the Homestead.

The short par 5s are low handicap holes at Philadelphia Country Club but not at Rolling Green, so I may be full of sh*t in my reasoning.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2006, 09:46:05 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Glenn Spencer

Re:Favorite "type" of hole; ie short par 4, etc.
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2006, 09:51:19 AM »
Par 3's from 215-240 yards. These are of course ruined due to the utility or rescue club or whatever, but long irons used to be a great judge of someone's game and how hard they worked on it, no longer though. >:(

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Favorite "type" of hole; ie short par 4, etc.
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2006, 07:58:51 PM »
Wayne:

We're on the same page, I think, but you might want to check your numbers.  I don't think there are many par-5's in the world where the average score for a scratch golfer is below 4.5, even today.  Hell, they rarely go below 4.5 on Tour, and the Tour player is a LOT better than scratch.

wsmorrison

Re:Favorite "type" of hole; ie short par 4, etc.
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2006, 09:40:44 PM »
I too believe we're on the same page.  The below 4.5 figure I referred to was for 485 to 510 yard holes such as the 7th and 18th at Rolling Green and other short holes of a kind that are called par 5s but can be reconsidered for some scratch players and all touring pros.  

I like Tom Paul's idea of different scorecards for scratch players at NGLA...lower the par from 73.  Granted the effect is psychological but also may reflect the probable scoring as well.

The USGA changed the par from 71 to 69 during the US Open at Philadelphia Country Club in 1939.  The current 6th and 12th holes were played as very long par 4s.  Byron Nelson said to me that the long approaches favored him as he was regarded as the greatest long iron player of his day.  The notion of par must have affected those pros during that tournament.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2006, 09:41:14 PM by Wayne Morrison »

PAW13

Re:Favorite "type" of hole; ie short par 4, etc.
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2006, 10:00:02 PM »
"Wayne:

I've seen those holes with different pars on the card.  I don't understand what is the big deal about it, why they just don't call them par fives for everyone -- if they did, a three would be a lot more exciting and the shot to the green would be a lot more tempting, yet the guy who couldn't get there would still be fine."

I would agree with this, Tom if there was no handicapping.  Maybe my analysis is faulty, but here's my take:

The definition of par seems to counter this argument and has a resulting effect on handicapping.  Par is the likely score of a scratch golfer so short par 5s that average 4.4 or less for scratch players (except the unusually short-off-the-tee Tom Paul) should be a par 4 for them.  Even though such holes may be relatively easy, these should be among the lower handicap holes on the course with bogey golfers averaging a stroke or more higher.  This is why I think it is OK to have two different pars for the scratch and bogey golfer.  Better that than changing the hole for the worse by adding tees that disconnect the strategy as with the back tee on 18 at Rolling Green or a prime example the 12th at the Old Course at the Homestead.

The short par 5s are low handicap holes at Philadelphia Country Club but not at Rolling Green, so I may be full of sh*t in my reasoning.

Wayne

Just saw this post so I apologize for bringing up old stuff.

Your quote about the PCC par 5 handicaps is just that.  Our 6th hole which measures 480 or so from the middle tees and only 500 from the back is a par 5 and is our number one stroke hole due to the fact that most higher handicaps cannot hit it over the creek in two (about 120 from green) and have to lay up at 160 and then try and hit a wood uphill to a two tier green.  Number 3 is the 5th stroke hole and number 12 is the 6th.  What are the numbers for Rolling Green's par 5's?  

When we did our stroke hole allocation in 2002 and then again in 2006 it jumped up from the 10th stroke hole.  But as for overall diffiuclty it ranked as the 16th hardest hole when you combined the two stroke averages on the hole.  Our members could not believe how it became number one, but the numbers don't lie.  And our everyday scorecard is considered a match play scorecard based on the USGA stroke hole allocation recommendation.  We also had a stroke play card from 2002-2005, until the members complained about the different cards.  Still don't understand why since the only time they used the stroke play cards was in tournaments and the cards were computer generated.


The USGA made the 6th hole a par 4 of 499 for the US Amateur, I think part of that is to get the scratch player to feel like he has to hit the green in regulation and thus take more chances than he would if thinks it is a par 5 and realizes that the lay up is a smarter play.

Tim DeBaufre who our DeBaufre Players Trophy is named after and Tim sets up the golf course for the event, changes the par on the scorecard every year (mainly the 6th hole and used to be the 12th before the new back tee).  But he was always telling us to not worry about the par of a hole, but just to play the hole and make as low of a score as possible.


Jordan Wall

Re:Favorite "type" of hole; ie short par 4, etc.
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2006, 12:18:18 AM »
I have always liked a hole short par-5 with a lot of danger.
Short, driveable par-4's with crazy greens are fun too.

I think a good example (for me) of a shortish par-5 with a lot of danger is #5 at Kapalua.  Like 540-something, downwind, and the closer your drive to the gully the shorter your next shot.  Then, to the green, its either carry or death.  Of course, for me, it's usually death but that one glory shot always makes me go for it
 8)