Old MacDonald: A Course by Sweeney, Doak, Bahto, Klein......

[Mike_Sweeney]

Tom Doak said:

Collaboration can be a good thing, but I've heard that sometimes the politics can be tough. We both agree that one of the reasons Pacific Dunes came out so well was that there was no dissension from anyone involved the whole way through ... lots of people made suggestions then, too, but in the end it was up to me and to Mike to make the decisions about which way to go. Anyone who wants to help out is free to call me and volunteer.  But, we do know how to build a golf course already, so you have to know something about Macdonald's work which George and Karl and Jim and Brad and I don't already know.

_________________________________________________

So Tom Doak asked for the above, so why not? However, for this thread I ask the following:

1.   Goodness knows I like to have a few laughs on GCA. However, I request that you think about this thread before you post. We have an opportunity as consumers to be productive and help Doak and Company out on this new course. George Crump had many friends at Pine Valley, but he did not have the power of the Internet. It took me about 20 minutes to develop my thoughts in the next post.
2.   Personal anecdotes such as how you took an 8 at Yale #18 should be sidelined. What is welcome is why you think a controversial hole such as Yale #18 should or should not be included at Old MacDonald.
3.   I disagree with Tom Doak’s premise that you have to know something about MacDonald’s work. However, Tom is an architect and was obviously speaking about building the course. I have an impression of a Ferrari and I have never driven a Ferrari. Mike Keiser is a developer, and they want to know what consumers will buy. Old MacDonald is a yet to be opened public resort course. Mike Keiser is not just trying to attract people who have played MacRaynor courses. He is trying to attract golfers who have never stepped on a MacRaynor course, but have through pictures and 1000 threads on NGLA, formed an opinion of what they like about MacRaynor courses. Thus the Mucci Rule is thrown out and all participants should feel free to post on this thread as potential consumers of Old MacDonald. Your impressions via words and pictures are welcome, as my guess is that Mike Keiser would be interested.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Okay, so here is mine. I think one of the things that gets lost on GCA is fairway contouring. Many believe it is in a bad thing. Reality is MacRaynor moved lots of dirt on courses with some wild land. The best case that come to my mind are Yale 8 and 14, and National 16. I am sure that George and Carl Olson have specific knowledge about how those fairways were created. As a frequent consumer of MacRaynor course, I love the way those fairways can reward and repel shots, can create blindness, some blindness and clear shots depending on your position in the fairway.

In the spirit of collaboration, I offer this wonderful summary of Yale #14, by Michael Moore, “This was the most beautiful hole I played all week. The fairway flows from left to right just so, horizontally and vertically, and the green is just about perfectly symmetrical in both dimensions, like a truncated cone or pyramid. The ultimate MacRaynor marriage of all-natural fairway and industrial green.” We later learned from Geoffrey that the #14 fairway was not natural, thus a lesson for Doak and Company. Those fairways look natural to a GCA geek, so Doak and Company, please build some fairways keeping in the spirit of those three holes.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I like where this is going. We are going to include ourselves in the process or poor Tom will have to block us out for 2 years.

[SPDB]

Mike - I am not sure I agree with your premise about what Mike Keiser is concerned with. Far be it for me to put ideas in his head, but it seems to me that for Keiser, he's concerned with building a first rate course modeled after what MacRaynor would have built on the same site and letting the consumer experience follow, not vice versa.

But your idea of a Knoll hole is great. I prefer the 13th at Piping to the 14th at Yale, but that's a matter of personal preference, and one of degree not kind. The fairway contouring at Yale is superior, but the green end is always the key - the sort of abrupt volcano like green that must be hit and held as trouble lurks everywhere. I guess I prefer the green at PRC because, unlike Yale, there is very little backdrop to the green. At Yale, you know if you go over the green, trees await you, and so you might psychologically play short. My first couple times around Piping (an experience which will be approximated at Bandon b/c unlike a private club, the majority of players through will be unfamiliar), I went after back pins routinely and went over the back and down the 15 foot bank only to have an impossible recovery.

I really hope a Knoll hole is included.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:  Thanks for coming to the party.

I agree with your take on fairway contouring.  One of the exciting things about the site in Bandon is that while it doesn't have ocean views, it does have some great sand-dune contours on the ground -- not individual dunes which stand out from a distance, but great movement through the ground.  I'm sure we will have to enhance that movement in some particular spots, but for the most part, I think just leaving it alone will yield the result you're after.

SPDB:  I'm low on sleep today but in reading back Mike's post I don't see where he said anything about a Knoll hole.  Still, I think it's one of the holes we will have to strongly consider.  In fact, Urbina and I were talking about that one today for part of our drive from Napa to The Valley Club.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
My only advice is free replays. Most people can't work through a love/hate relationship in just one try.  

[Geoffrey Childs]

Mike

I took a 7 on #18 on Sunday to shoot 80    I still love the hole.

My only comment righ now about the project (and I spoke with George about this at lenght this weekend) is that I would like to see the flexibility of having the course play to a yardage that could require the very best and longest players to hit the clubs and kind of shots that MacDonald intended for NGLA.  Those tees would not have to be used more then once a yeat but it sure would be special to see (for example) a Shell's WOnderful WOrld of Golf with Tiger and Ernie playing long irons into an Alps or biarritz.

[George_Bahto]

just as a point of interest on the Knoll hole at Yale:

On all Knoll holes as originally built there was a back plateau as per the original at Scotscraig and later on the frirst they built at PR.

I'm sure the back shelf at Yale was removed during the 50s-60s when (he) did his thing to the course over the years.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I would think that those involved would be able to discuss the difference between Raynor courses that he finished and the ones that were finished by Banks. I know George can.

Mike, thanks for the invite. It's OK, I thrive on rejection. I'll be over it in a month or three. Don't worry about me. Just go about your life and don't give it a second thought.

Anthony

[SPDB]

Tom Doak -

I had always thought (perhaps based on a discussion here) that 14 at Yale was a Knoll hole.

I'm glad you think that the Knoll would be a valuable addition.

From Scotscraig -

[tonyt]

Mike didn't worry about many consumer stated likes and habits when he picked the Oregon coast and built BD on it.

I don't believe that the MacRaynor principle need be tempered with assumptions of what the public may want. Mike knows that if the right thing is built, and the consumers are told what it is and why it was done, many actually come on board (if it is good). The consumers have been brought around from the 60s and 70s styles to a point where words like "wild" and "natural" are often used in marketing, accurate or not.

Consumers won't be told, but they'll happily be guided and educated. And recount to all the buddies back at work with a convincing nod the principles in place, even if they read them and didn't notice them.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike didn't worry about many consumer stated likes and habits when he picked the Oregon coast and built BD on it.

Tony,

From Dream Golf The Making of Bandon Dunes - page 55:

Mike (Keiser)...liked to pose a hypothetical question: "Given 10 rounds to divide between Shinnecock and National, how often would you play each course? "You'd be surprised," he reports, "how many people say they'd play one round at Shinnecock and nine at National."............"I wanted to see if my ideas would match up with those of the subjective 'experts' who rank these things."

__________________________________________

So I disagree with your premise. He also compared on that page the similarity of tracking great golf courses with greeting cards. Sales of cards and rankings of courses tell you a whole bunch, but you have to dig deeper, which is what he did and it the point of this thread.

The book explained to me that Bandon was a very careful choice. It talks about his love of National, Merion and Pine Valley in The States, and how he wanted to bring great links golf from Scotland to Oregon. I agree with you that he had a Dream Golf vision in Oregon, but his original dream (public, affordable, great links golf) was not unique to the world of golf, only to the US market where great golf is typically private or very expensive.

[Tim Gavrich]

Mr. Doak and Co.

I will attempt to give a couple suggestions.  The only Macdonald-Raynor experience I have is Yale and Hotchkiss (Fishers Island sometime in the spring, God-willing), in addition to all the pictures I've seen.

***** I know that there have been discussions about Mac-Raynor and short par-fours on here before (namely the low number of them on their golf courses).  However, I believe that it would behoove you to try to design the best short four in the Mac-Raynor portfolio.  By "short-four," I don't mean 315 from the back tees.  I'm thinking about something in the neighborhood of 285 from the tips, so that more people will have the opportunity of reaching the green in one (a 310 yard par four is still only reachable for a very small number of players; 280-290 brings more people into it, since the "regular" tees would put the hole in the 250-265 range).  I personally believe that the Double Plateau green concept would find a nice home on a 285 yard par four at Old MacDonald.  In my mind, the larger plateau would comprise the right side of the green, with a 15-25 foot deep bunker along the right of the green.  The left plateau would be smaller, and would mirror the left greenside of 17 at Yale (which just drops off a bit into the rough, if memory serves).
     The one thing that I believe Yale is missing is a reasonably driveable short four.  Numbers 11 and 14 are in the Twilight Zone, where only a handful can get there, and only under very firm and fast conditions.

(I'm not sure if the above suggestion falls within the ground rules of this topic; it's pretty specific, but I thought I'd just throw it out there, in case it's a possibility).

***** When I talk to people about Yale, opinions are typically polarized.  I fall into the group who loves it and could play it every day.  However, when I talk to golfers who are, shall we say, less learnèd in the architectural virtues of Yale, they tend to pooh-pooh it as "tricked-up," and "miniature-golf-like."  Now I know that some of us would dismiss these opinions as invalid because of inexperience, but the truth is that this is the type of golfer that will comprise the majority of players who go to Bandon Dunes.
     With the above in mind, I would recommend that the Artists Channeling the Master try to steer clear of blind shots as much as possible at Old Macdonald.  I know that the Mac-Raynor purists would argue that this would effectively negate the Alps and Punchbowl templates, but I believe that if golfers of average devotion to the game and limited enlightenment about the thrill of blind shots played an Old Macdonald with as many blind shots as, for instance, Yale, they will walk away disappointed and frustrated.  I'd say that any more than one or (at absolute maximum) two blind shots would cause the lay golfing crowd to think of Old Macdonald as "tricked-up," and place it below the other three courses.

*****I would love to see a very aggressive approach to the bunkering at Old Macdonald.  Even though it'll be a daily-fee golf course, the public must be given an accurate dose of Mac-Raynor dastardliness (is that a word?).  A Road Hole bunker of equal ferocity to that o the old #4 at Yale and #17 at TOC would be essential, as would a few 30-footers à la #8 at Yale.

That's all I can say at this point.  I hope that those suggestions fell within the standards of this discussion.

Cheers,

--Tim Gavrich

[tonyt]

Mike, the mere location of Bandon backs up my point.

In this instance, what I mean is that he already dragged them to a place very remote to most. NGLA and Shinny aren't quite as far away from many people. And not having the name of either of those two courses, the appreciation from the public had to be organically grown.

So bear in mind my point includes carting them to Oregon. People on these boards from all walks of life business can attest to examples of location affecting a business' success as much as quality of the product. He went for the great site, not one that is a day trip game from New York.

[Mike_Sweeney]

So bear in mind my point includes carting them to Oregon. People on these boards from all walks of life business can attest to examples of location affecting a business' success as much as quality of the product. He went for the great site, not one that is a day trip game from New York.

Tony,

The day tripper market is obviously not relevant to this discussion.

I want to be clear that I obviously respect Mike K, but he is not Walt Disney who created Disneyworld in a orange grove. Great remote links public golf has been around for a long time at St Andrews GC and similar spots. Reality is that St Andrews and Bandon are probably pretty equal for me to get to from New York, but certainly Huck and all of California can get to Bandon much easier than St Andrews. I have not been to Bandon and until the Old Mac course was announced my inclination was to use free time to play vacation golf in Ireland and Scotland.

Now because of Mike K's Disneyish idea (Walt Disney not the public company of today, so please this is a compliment), I really am intrigued by the combination of Bandon resort and location of the resort + Doak collaboration team + MacRaynor heritage. Mike K has now given me a reason to take a domestic flight rather than an international flight.

Yes, I do believe that marketing MacDonald was at least a part of Mike K's decision, because MacDonald courses are incredibly unique, at least to me. MacKenzie was probably a pretty close second as he could have sold a public Augusta & Cypress pretty well.

Tim,

Nice post.

[David_Elvins]

Mike Sweeney,

Nice thread.  Re: your original comment, I don't think Tom will have to alter much to accomplish this.  Having recently played Doak's St Andrews Beach a few times, the most noticable feature of the course is the correlation in the design between position on the fairway and visibility of the target.  On 10 out of the 14 long holes visibilty of the target varies significantly depending on position on the fairway.  On atleast 5-6 holes the fairway contours must be challenged  off the tee to find prime position and view the target for the approach shot.  

[Mike_Sweeney]

In addition to the usual things noted about Yale, two things of a general nature I like:
1. Holes play differently depending on which tee, and not just longer.  #1 and #6 from back tees for example play as doglegs, and #2 and #18 tees are substantially higher from the backs. (Conversely, #4 short tee is higher, and the hole straighter, from the forward tees.) The angles, in three dimensions, vary by tee, giving one the feel of several different holes residing inside of what nominally is one hole. (The greens really amp up this aspect.)

Mark,

This why I find the collaboration of George and Tom interesting. You the consumer like alternate tees, yet George the historian, I believe will say that MacRaynor did not do many alternate tees. At least in the case of Yale #6, I believe that Harry The Yale Super added that back tee. It is not in the sketches that George has in his book. Same with Yale 3, the back tee that plays straighter off the tee and is closer to #1 tee is not in George's sketches in his book.

At a resort with repeat play and varying weather, I would assume that Tom would have a variety of tees, however I would be curious to hear if MacRaynor did in fact have only a few tees on most of their courses when they were around.

Shivas,

I completely agree. Only do an Alps if you can do an Alps. Mountain Lake's is a nice golf hole, but it is no Alps.

[Michael Moore]

Consider omitting the thiry-foot deep bunkers. They are exciting to photograph, to be associated with, and to hit over. However, I believe that these bunkers are much more about the hubris of the architect than they are about strategic golf. Recovering from a twelve foot deep bunker is  much more interesting and compelling, and while the challenging one on an approach shot may be slightly less thrilling than hitting over a veritable canyon, the visuals and strategy are similar.

It would be totally refreshing to see a templateria that was true to the forms yet did not attempt to join in the "my Biarritz is 90 yards long and has a 12 foot swale" pissing match.

[Tim Gavrich]

I'd disagree and say that the 30-foot deep bunkers are the stuff that people want to see.  When you think about it, what other public golf courses have such deep bunkers?  I think that eyes of prospective Bandon visitors will be widened when their friends tell them about the bunkers, provided that they are escapable.

I don't know that Mac-Raynor courses are about STRATEGY STRATEGY STRATEGY on every single hole.  The Short holes are often a small target that says "Hit the green or else."  I don't see anything wrong with a couple holes that just force the player to hit a good shot.  I believe that really deep bunkers can be applicable for just such occasions.

[Craig Van Egmond]

I do find it fascinating that in the past 'tribute type' courses like Royal Links, The Tribute, Tour 18, etc.. have been panned fairly heavily on this board but this one has everybody excited. The Keiser effect?  The Doak effect?

Disclosure: I thoroughly enjoyed playing both the Royal Links, The Tribute and hope to one day play Olde Mac.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Disclosure: I thoroughly enjoyed playing both the Royal Links, The Tribute and hope to one day play Olde Mac.

Craig,

Somewhere deep the archives, I came clean and said that I did enjoy The Architects Club (NJ) and Royal Links, but that clubhouse was a little funky.



And of course National Golf Links of America by CB Mac is the Mother Ship of tribute courses.

[Jay Flemma]

Tom, what do you think about my favorite of all green complexes - a Lion's Mouth!