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Tom Huckaby

Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2006, 10:51:47 AM »
Sully, that question has been broached many times in this august forum.

My feeling on 16 CPC is this:  the two options do exist - and that gives it one more option than damn near every other par three on this planet.  And the length of the hole - combined with the fame of it - makes it just that much more tempting.  That is, it's "only" a 200 yard carry.  Damn near all golfers THINK they can make it... and thus way more try it than likely should, if making the best score is the goal.  Then factor in that the layup shot to the Isthmus of Moriarty on the left really isn't all that easy either... And well, to me it becomes one maddening, tantalizing, tempting, wonderful golf hole.  And note I've yet to mention the scenic beauty.

TH
« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 10:52:32 AM by Tom Huckaby »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2006, 10:54:00 AM »
To really be the best hole in all of golf wouldn't a fair requirement be to ask for a quality drive with varying levels of risk and reward for all caliber player. Options on the second (that is a full shot), whether it be to the green or as a layup for position. Finally, and most importantly, a green complex that dictates all of the decisions beginning back at the tee.

To me it must be reachable in two by some, playable by all.

Tom Huckaby

Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2006, 10:58:07 AM »
Sully, those are great qualifications for the best hole in golf.

But if you think about it, CPC #16 meets every one.  Oh, perhaps not in such quantities as other great two-shotters... but I can answer "yes" and check off every single part you just wrote.

Even the requirement that the second be a full shot can happen into a strong enough wind....

In any case, my main point is this:  sometimes some holes - or courses - are just so great, so inspiring, so beautiful, so spiritual - that they need not follow any rules or meet any requirements.

Such a hole is 16CPC.  If you do get to play it some day, you'll understand.

 ;)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2006, 11:02:04 AM »
Tom,

Do not take my words as a shot at another West Coast gem, that is not the intention.

When you say two options
Quote
"gives it one more option than damn near every other par three on this planet."
I do not understand. On almost every par three I have played the player can choose to hit the ball any number of yardages off the tee and plan to get on with the next shot. It appears that #16 CPC limits you to two planned yardages. Am I correct?

The rest of your post seems entrenched in the admittedly difficult to lose mindset of "I am only here once so I am going for it".[/i] That's fine because in essence for most of us that would be the case, but imagine you played there 100 times and now you are going there for a tournament. If it's medal play how would you play the hole? In match play WITH THE HONOR, how would you play the hole?

One thing you say is interesting to me, and that is that the layup is not all that easy either. From photos that has always been my impression but could not be sure. What type of yardage would you be looking for when laying up to the left?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2006, 11:03:54 AM »

Such a hole is 16CPC.  If you do get to play it some day, you'll understand.

 ;)

It is at the very top of my individual hole wish list. The course itself is high on the list, but that hole is at the very top.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2006, 11:04:35 AM »
Sully,  prudent golfers incapable of not carrying it 197 yards, do have the option to go left and do use it, because they must. But the term option on this hole is more than do or die, it can be subtle. For those who go for the green, it's usually a question of where to aim, so that the winds influence will adjust your ball flight perfectly. For those who admit layup, there are the options of how far left, besides how far. Which are all wind dependant.

I thought the ninth was the best hole on the course, therefore qualifying for my all world hole. But, I won't come to that definitive conclusion until I have played them all.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2006, 11:08:33 AM »
JES

The lay-up shot on #16 at CPC is no automatic bunt in its own right. The strip of fairway is longer than you think there. In other words there is strategy involved in the lay-up in terms of trying to lay up in the right spot to give yourself the right yardage into the green.

Also wind plays a huge role on #16. Could be a 4 iron one day and a 50/50 shot of making it with a drive the next. The golfer must negotiate the wind and decide whether he wants to go for it, and if it he does lay up, where to aim to give himself the yardage he wants.

In comparison, #15 is a straight forward short iron shot (albeit one of the most spectacular in the world)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2006, 11:09:18 AM »
Does CPC typically play as firm as possible?

That to me is a major consideration in greatness. If the ball is likely to stop very close to where it lands, alot is lost. EDIT IN: when I say this I refer to shot demands if I can separate that out from the architecture. I am not challenging the courses greatness. I am trying to visualize the shots from that tee through the words you are all writing.

Do they like it brown?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 11:11:43 AM by JES II »

ForkaB

Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2006, 11:11:14 AM »
15 at CPC is world class eye candy but not much more and 16 is a one trick pony.  If you feel like you have to suck up to the Cypresians, be honest to your GCA principles and choose 6 or 8 or 13. ;)

Tom Huckaby

Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2006, 11:13:05 AM »
Sully:

I knew you weren't trying to knock it, but rather to understand it.  No problems there.

And admittedly, the "I am only here once, no way do I lay up" part of this does come into play.  But that was not what I meant at all.

Adam gets to the heart of it - the carry is actually "only" 197 yards.  It takes a golfer VERY into strategy, or his match, or his score, or with a keen sense of his limitations, to just give up and go left.  And as Evan has also now attested, what complicates things even more is the shot to the left is not all that easy... you pick your poison but generally it's at least 150-160, over water, to an area that's not all that deep.. short is water, long is worse.  And if one can hit a 150 yard shot to an area like that, what's stopping him from going for the extra 40 yards?  THAT is the point here... there's a lot more going on that would otherwise be apparent.

BTW, when I said the hole has one more option than damn near all other par threes, I meant one viable, usable, defined and tempting one.  Of course one could putt to the front of the tee box on any given hole.  But I figured we were above Mucci-istic semantic battles on this thread.

 ;D

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2006, 11:13:57 AM »
Sadly the presentation is pampered rather than ideal.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Stan Dodd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2006, 11:19:02 AM »
Having looped 54 holes at CPC this weekend I can see it is playing firm and fast and the greens are slllllick.
I think there are more than two options off the tee.  The layup can be safe, safer or safest each leaving a different angle and yardages.  For the strong player there are options as well in playing safely long.  As old time loopers say " I have never raked the back bunker"
I echo Adma though the 9th is hard to beat.
Another consideration for a par is the 9th at Royal Aberdeen, vastly under rated and unrecognized.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2006, 11:19:15 AM »
Based on the words written it sounds like the hole could be nearly unplayable for the decent faction of the golfing world. Those that cannot carry the ball 200 yards in the air or hit it high enough at 160 to have it stop pretty quick. Those players generally hit the ball pretty low, is that fair? The layup area is pretty shallow, right? How the hell do they stop the ball when their shot the the left carries 160 yards but is coming in with no spin? Does it go into water on the other side?

What percentage of golfers does this eliminate? Do you think 50% of the golfing world can realistically carry a ball 160 and have it stop in fairly short order? I don't know

Tom Huckaby

Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2006, 11:19:45 AM »
15 at CPC is world class eye candy but not much more and 16 is a one trick pony.  If you feel like you have to suck up to the Cypresians, be honest to your GCA principles and choose 6 or 8 or 13. ;)

I have no GCA principles, and I KNOW you don't either.   ;D

For the rest of the forum here, just note Rich's prior take on 16 CPC was "no big deal, simple driver to right side."  Judge accordingly.  The man is so target-focused he has lost his golf soul - that is if he ever had one.

 ;D ;D

BTW, 6, 8, 13 are all great holes.  But I prefer 14 to any of those... also 9....

It is one hell of a golf course.

TH

Stan Dodd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2006, 11:21:01 AM »
The layup is not narrow, you have the width of the 17th fairway.

Tom Huckaby

Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2006, 11:21:40 AM »
Based on the words written it sounds like the hole could be nearly unplayable for the decent faction of the golfing world. Those that cannot carry the ball 200 yards in the air or hit it high enough at 160 to have it stop pretty quick. Those players generally hit the ball pretty low, is that fair? The layup area is pretty shallow, right? How the hell do they stop the ball when their shot the the left carries 160 yards but is coming in with no spin? Does it go into water on the other side?

What percentage of golfers does this eliminate? Do you think 50% of the golfing world can realistically carry a ball 160 and have it stop in fairly short order? I don't know

Let's not get carried away - the ball doesn't have to stop quickly at 160.  It's just not a simple 160 yard shot into a fairway, as one otherwise might presume.  You have ocean to carry, and the visual is that it's narrow although one does have room (as Stan says).  And if 160 is too far, one can shorten that... Go look at a picture of the hole, you'll see what we mean.  You can also go a lot farther left if you wish.  The fattest part would just seem to occur at 160.

The hole can be played by anyone - it's just a matter of what their goals are and how much they can resist temptation.

TH
« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 11:23:10 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2006, 11:24:13 AM »

It is one hell of a golf course.

Yeah I'd say its a pretty good one...  ;) ;)

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2006, 11:28:47 AM »
There comes a time in life when you say to yourself "I know I can play better than this, but never do." I have played Cypress many, many times and regularly plonked it on the green with a three or four wood regardless of conditions. Today, I daren't even try the driver, so I go left and rely on a dodgy wedge game to keep me competitive. If there is a better hole in golf please let me know about it....it must be very special.


Bob

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2006, 11:37:14 AM »
Having recently played Black, I can attest to the visual attraction of the 4th hole and its strategic implications. However, as for the best hole in all of golf, I don't deal in those issues. ;D
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

ForkaB

Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2006, 11:38:07 AM »
Bob

With all due respect, if you have trouble hitting it close on the 16th in two from a layup to the left, your wedge game is not "dodgy" but non-existent (and I know yours is neither).

Try hitting the 14th at Dornoch in 3 (anybody not able to hit CPC 16 in one will not be able to hit the 14th at RDGC in 2) and you will see true greatness.  Greatness is different than eye candy.  Trust me!

Rich

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2006, 11:41:29 AM »
 :D 8) :)

With all due respect, there is no way you can say one hole is the best in all of golf. It's far more ridiculous than saying one course is the best, for obvious reasons.

Shame on you!

Tom Huckaby

Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2006, 11:43:44 AM »
Rich:

I have played Foxy several times.  It is indeed a truly great golf hole - maddening, fascinating, difficult.  It belongs in this conversation for sure.

But what you call "eye candy" I call inspiring if not downright spiritual.

The test is this:  my knees shook every time I've been lucky enough to stand on the tee at 16 CPC.  As great as Foxy is - and soul-stirring it is indeed - I never quite got the same feeling.

To each his own, for sure.  But the use of the denigrating "eye candy" term is a bit overdone.

TH

ps - Archie, of course you're right... but if that was the tack we took, we'd never talk at all here!  Maybe that would be a good thing...  ;)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 12:14:16 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2006, 11:45:09 AM »
Rihc,

You have a point about RD and the fourteenth and its degree of difficulty. As I have played the hole less than a half a dozen times I always return to the familiar and you will notice most contributors to this discussion have done likewise.

Bob

ForkaB

Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2006, 11:54:44 AM »
Bob

Thanks

Tom

Your "knee shaking" descriptives absolutely define "eye candy."  Thanks too.

Tom Huckaby

Re:The best hole in all of golf
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2006, 12:13:06 PM »
Tom

Your "knee shaking" descriptives absolutely define "eye candy."  Thanks too.

Rich - figured you'd see it that way.  You remain golf soul-less and have confirmed such once again.

Thanks!

TH

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