Pine Valley (old footage) on TV Wednesday night

[JSlonis]

Besides the obvious club/yardage differences, the two things that jumped out to me about the course back then were:

1. How different the front part of the 10th green looked.  I was really surprised to see how far the green extended toward the front bunkers and how much of a false front there appeared to be.  There was a tongue of the green that extended all the way down to the side of the D.A. bunker.  It was a significant difference from the more recent picture below.


2. I couldn't believe how high the rough was just off the fairway.  There really isn't that much rough on the course, but what was there was brutal.  I have never seen it that high.

Also, I don't recall this match being in color on TV before.  For some reason, I remember watching it for the first time many years ago, and thought it was in Black & White.  Was this "colorized" or is my memory fading at too early of an age?

[Jim Franklin]

Colorized, you're not that old  .

[Scott_Burroughs]

I caught the show from their approaches to #12 to the end.  My mental notes while watching:

1)  like others, how 'short' they hit the ball.  Long iron after long iron for approaches (including a wood into the downhill #18 for Nelson).  Pine Valley really was tough for all then.

2)  conditioning was far from present-day 'perfection'.  Saw some spotty fairways.

3)  He was Gentleman Byron, but he stilled showed 'emotion' via an irritated swat of the club after hitting a poor 2nd shot on #15.

4)  the host/narrator commented on Littler using the 'fashionable/new' putting stroke of little/no wrist movement.

5)  I was curious as who the host/narrator was after he hosted the post-logue 'lesson' on how to hit 'straight' balls and draws.  I checked out the closing credits.  It was Herbert Warren Wind.  EDIT:  NOT!  I was wrong!  

[Adam Clayman]

Scott, It was Gene Sarazen

[Sean Leary]

The other thing I noticed is that it is difficult to tell from TV how severe the greens are, particularly number 2..

[Scott_Burroughs]

Scott, It was Gene Sarazen

 

Whoops.  That makes more sense.  He was Sarazen's height for sure.  Kinda looked like Hogan.

Wind was co-producer, at least.

[mike_malone]

 I recall Wind being credited as "writer".

[Adam Clayman]

The credit I saw for HWW was as writer.

[mike_malone]

 Adam,

   Whopped you by 18 seconds !

[Jordan Wall]

I would just like to point out I said on a regular 600 yard hole I could get within 50 yards.  I was not saying I could do that at the 15 th at PV.

I have never played there, or even been there (yet), so I could not comment on that hole.

I was just trying to make a comparison to how short balls went a few years back.

It amazes me.


The courses looked really cool on TV, and I agree that the rough looked awfully thick!
What a cool show that was, I am glad I watched what I could of it..

[RE Blanks]

Biggest change for me was smoking allowed on the course.  From watching the replay last night, it would appear that smoking was mandatory.

[ChipRoyce]

I read somewhere an interview with one of the producers of the show (might have been Sarazen proper) who provided some interesting detail about both the making of the episodes in general as well as the taping at Pine Valley

1) The match is taped in its entirety and Sarazen and his co-host (was Jimmy Demaret in the later episodes) would do a little on-course commentary. However, much of the voice over was done in the studio afterwards (which suggests the role of H.W.Wind as a "writer").

2) The Pine Valley match was interesting - from what I remember, there was an issue with a camera during one of the holes, and the players had to return to the course and re-create their play on the hole. Forget which one, but it was completely staged. Its hard to notice however, since the show will selectively omit shots and instead provide a play-by-play to move the pace of the show along.

I'll search some on google to see if I can find more references to this.

[RSLivingston_III]

I'm making a DVD for someone from the board and can do more if anyone wants one.  It is saving to my DVR and I can copy to a DVD.

John, if you wouldn't mind making another copy, I would also like to get one.

I have not been to PV as yet and was amazed when I saw the 10th green during the telecast. It must be incredibly intimidating from the tee to see that green with "roll-off"(?) mowing. It is disappointing to learn that the green is not mown like that now.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JSlonis,

# 10 was changed around the time of the Walker Cup.

Previously, the green fed balls into the DA.

Subsequently, a ridge was created above the bunker and the area was allowed to grow to rough.

I liked the old design better.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Chip

Al Barkow's book, "Gene Sarazen and Shell's Wonderful World of Golf, " tells the story of the filming of the Littler v. Nelson match in great detail.

from a review at amazon.com

The most fascinating portion of the saga of SHELL'S WONDERFUL WORLD OF GOLF can be found in the descriptions of the production of the individual television shows. Contemporary golf fans have become complacent with modern technology and its impact on televised golf. Golf matches even avail themselves of lights to allow for evening matches. In the 1960s television technology was far more primitive. Two days were often required to film one 18-hole match. Players were sometimes forced to wait twenty minutes between shots as cameras, cables and crowds were repositioned for the next shot. On occasion, because an actual shot was not adequately filmed, producers had to include phony shots that were filmed separately from the actual match. To read these chapters is to understand how far televised golf and indeed all televised sports have come.

This book is a wonderful addition to any golf library, but it's also a little bit more. It reminds us of an era when television and the entertainment industry were still in their infant stages. How they were able to grow both artistically and technologically is the message that can be learned from SHELL'S WONDERFUL WORLD OF GOLF and its progeny.

--- Reviewed by Stuart Shiffman

Steve

[Greg Beaulieu]

1) The match is taped in its entirety and Sarazen and his co-host (was Jimmy Demaret in the later episodes) would do a little on-course commentary. However, much of the voice over was done in the studio afterwards (which suggests the role of H.W.Wind as a "writer").

2) The Pine Valley match was interesting - from what I remember, there was an issue with a camera during one of the holes, and the players had to return to the course and re-create their play on the hole. Forget which one, but it was completely staged. Its hard to notice however, since the show will selectively omit shots and instead provide a play-by-play to move the pace of the show along.

If you recall the par-3 on the front 9 where Littler had a meltdown and made a 7, he had a shot from below the green out of the sand that he left in the long grass on the bank. The film showed his swing and then a fairly close shot of the ball plopping into the bank. No way was that captured as it happened -- the shot of the ball landing on the bank had to be recreated.

BTW, the host last night (and in the first few years of the show) was George Rogers, who apparently resented the presence of Sarazen and tried to limit his air time. As he became more difficult over the years he was eventually replaced with Demaret, who had made an appearance on one of the shows and was a hit.

[James Bennett]

50 yards from the green in 2 on 15? I wonder how many of the Crump Cup players were able to do that? That hole really narrows on your second shot. Left is dead and right is no picnic (but better than left). a full 8 or 9 iron in would be your most prudent chance for a birdie, IMO. - Dan

Some people hit it dead on their second shot on #15, others die with the teeshot .  I think a six on this hole would be an ok score - 5 would be great but six is ok.  It is a LONG examination of your abilities.

James B

[JSlonis]

While watching my DVR recording of this match last night. I noticed a peculiar thing on the very first hole. If any of you still have it taped, check it out...

On #1, Littler hits his 4 iron approach over the back of the first green.  You see the ball hit the green and then tumble over and down into some sandy area with "brownish" grass.  The ball is clearly not sitting all that well and the lie seems to be very tough.  I was expecting to see him play some sort of explosion shot to get the ball up to the green.  INSTEAD...

The next shot you see is Littler addressing his pitch shot which is now remarkably in green grass rough with a much better lie.  He proceeds to hit a fairly routine pitch up to the green about 4 feet away, and then hole his putt for a par 4.

The two lies and shots could not have been more different from each other.  If in fact the camera missed Littler's first up and down, that's a shame, because it was a helluva lot more difficult than the one they actually ended up showing.

Also...

On #2, you hear Sarazen explaining how a 250 yd drive at Pine Valley was the equivalent of a 275 yd drive elsewhere because of the "Bermuda grass" that slowed the tee shots down.  Did Pine Valley ever have Bermuda grass fairways?  Or was Sarazen misinformed?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Jamie

See my post above on tv production in early Shell's WWG matches:

"On occasion, because an actual shot was not adequately filmed, producers had to include phony shots that were filmed separately from the actual match."

[Patrick_Mucci]

JSlonis,

Since pride and ego were involved, and it was a match, who determined which player was entitled to a prefered lie/position, and why would the other player go along with it ?

I can't imagine anyone hitting it to 4 feet from over and beyond the first green.

Where the current trees there ?