Did the "dead guys " greens move over the years???

[Mike_Young]

Just got back from from playing some "dead guy" stuff in the NE and was discussing elevation change of push up greens over the years and how they impact pin placements.  While it is possible to take a green back out to its original pad and replace bunker depths, shapes etc.....I that often slopes are missed.  I saw one green where the supt and a green committee member are convinced the front slope has moved as much as a foot thus eliminating the pin position.....so what evidence is there that this happens?  I know it happens but don't think it has been recorded....

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Interesting observation. A couple of old time members of Piping Rock,  who can very much golf the ball, are convinced that the front to middle right of the 6th green settled a couple of feet over the years.  A course built on sandy soil could very well have a change in contours over the years.

[SPDB]

Robert - What do you mean by "settled?" I know they recaptured (?) greenspace on the front left. Is all of the work at PRC done in house by Spear?

[Mike_Young]

Interesting observation. A couple of old time members of Piping Rock,  who can very much golf the ball, are convinced that the front to middle right of the 6th green settled a couple of feet over the years.  A course built on sandy soil could very well have a change in contours over the years.

I don't think that is uncommon....and may happen more than we realize...

[Padraig Dooley]

This happens all the time, top dressing changes the contours a lot quicker than you would imagine.

I've noticed some significant changes in the greens of my home course in the past ten years, so I can only imagine how much they've changed in eighty years.

A friend of mine was the pro at Mount Juliet, the greens were resurfaced there after only ten years. During reconstruction, he was on the thrid green with the shaper, he noticed a significant change in a slope. He asked the shaper about it, to which he replied that it was part of the original blueprint. They were reconstructing to the original palns.

My friend started there four or five years after it opened, so in only five years the green changed quite significantly.

[Steve Burrows]

The 11th green at Granville Golf Club, an old Ross course in Ohio where I went to school, has sunk some three feet since the course was built in the mid-20's.  The front of the green has literally just fallen down, which doesn't really affect the approach to the green (visually), but a middle left pin position is one of the most difficult places you'll ever see a pin.  Borderline unfair, if that's possible.  First time visitors to the course usually walking away thinking that the green contours have something to do with the bold genius of Donald Ross, but the old-timers will tell you that the original green, though contoured, was much more level and that the green has evolved into something it was never meant to be.  Maybe it was a construction mistake.  Maybe they just used some bad fill for that particular green.  But, yes, it's pretty common.

[Tom_Doak]

Somebody needs to explain to me HOW a green would "sink" over time.  I don't think I've ever seen a real case of it.  It's possible that it could happen if the green was built on fill which wasn't firmly packed down, but that would happen over the first year, NOT fifty years later.

It's also possible that some parts of the green could be built up much more by topdressing than others ... usually if part of the green has been eliminated for years and therefore deliberately not part of the topdressing program.  So, if the green had shrunk in front, it could get steeper from front to back.  Just as common, though, are cases where the superintendent has deliberately topdressed the green more heavily at the front in years past to soften the slope ... I've seen that several times where we have dug up a green with a big "false front".

However, I think that the vast majority of what is described as "settling" is simply a matter of the green becoming faster over time, and a 4% or 5% slope suddenly becoming much more severe to putt on than it once was.

[Mike_Young]

Somebody needs to explain to me HOW a green would "sink" over time.  I don't think I've ever seen a real case of it.  It's possible that it could happen if the green was built on fill which wasn't firmly packed down, but that would happen over the first year, NOT fifty years later.

It's also possible that some parts of the green could be built up much more by topdressing than others ... usually if part of the green has been eliminated for years and therefore deliberately not part of the topdressing program.  So, if the green had shrunk in front, it could get steeper from front to back.  Just as common, though, are cases where the superintendent has deliberately topdressed the green more heavily at the front in years past to soften the slope ... I've seen that several times where we have dug up a green with a big "false front".

However, I think that the vast majority of what is described as "settling" is simply a matter of the green becoming faster over time, and a 4% or 5% slope suddenly becoming much more severe to putt on than it once was.

I have never seen one sink and I am not speaking of topdressing.....I am speaking more of the pad either sliding or compacting over time...

[John Chilver-Stainer]

On certain golf course where greens have been built over a peat moor significant settlement can occur. Usually the greenkeepers compensate this by adding material to level it out again. Even more interesting is “frost heave” which occurs when a saturated peat substrate freezes in winter, during the thaw the whole green “heaves” up and then returns more or less to it’s original level.
Obviously these are mostly primitive “minimal” greens built on a shoestring budget where no engineering skills were involved.

[Mike_Young]

On certain golf course where greens have been built over a peat moor significant settlement can occur. Usually the greenkeepers compensate this by adding material to level it out again. Even more interesting is “frost heave” which occurs when a saturated peat substrate freezes in winter, during the thaw the whole green “heaves” up and then returns more or less to it’s original level.
Obviously these are mostly primitive “minimal” greens built on a shoestring budget where no engineering skills were involved.

John,
I think it can happen on all types od greens especially where there is a deep frostline.....even if a green is a "layered construction" such as a USGA the pad it was built on can heave etc.....if it only moves an inch every few years it can become an issue...IMO

[Steve Burrows]

"Somebody needs to explain to me HOW a green would "sink" over time."

I guess I can't give you a definite answer as to how the green sunk, but it certainly has.  Maybe it was some sort of localized geologic event, a giant sinkhole, or something like that.  The earth does move, over time, in a similar sense that trees grow, and roots expand, etc.  But, I defy any one to look at this particular green and honestly say that it was built the way it looks now.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I"m with you.

In addition, "membership memory" doesn't tend to be the most reliable source of information.  "Senior Moments" didn't get that label because guys memory's improved with age.

I've never encountered greens that had specific areas that sunk since I first played them.  One would think that the perception might be created because other portions of the green might have risen through topdressing.  But, I can't think of any greens that I've encountered where the interrelationship of the contouring has changed due to topdressing.

The only possible explanation I could think of was if the push up green contained degradable material, like tree limbs.  While that's highly unlikely, it may have been possible.

[Mike_Young]

Pat and TD,
I don't think topdressing has created change....
BUT....I do think there are significant green pads that have moved over the years.....i have never seen golf construction specifications that require the compaction necessary to guarantee such would not happen.....one sees it in cartpaths and other features so I don't know why not for greens.....
Mike

[Tim Copeland]

I have noticed settling after floating greens.  The black interface shows the settling.  This is REALLY evident when the greens sits for a few weeks before seeding.  The irrigation starts on the grow in and all of a  sudden "pockets" develop.  Those continue to develop over the life of the green

Also,  if you think about it....the base of the green is native soil.....then the drainage is cut into this native soil and perf pipe is placed in this cavity.....the cavity is filled with pea gravel and then greensmix(barring a California green construction or a "choker layer")is place on top of this.....i am not saying that massive settling occurs....but some settling over the years occurs because the pea gravel is coarser thatn the greensmix.

I have also dug up push up greens that had Bricks, wood, rocks and other material in them.


....and IF specs are ever put in for compaction of greensmix.....it will not solve the problem....IMO

[Ian Andrew]

I have two examples where greens changed (a lot)

At Midland Golf & CC (Nicol Thompson) the 17th green had a very small low spot in the front for the first six years I went up and then had a three foot deep bathtub the next year. Part of the way through the year it was discovered why when a greensmower went through the turf and into an  open pocket. The green was built on a courderoy of wood and the wood had finally broken down enough to leave an air pocket behind (after about 60 years).

The real interesting one was at Oshawa Golf & Country Club. The 10th green (built by S. Thompson) was very steep but an even pitch. A couple of years back a trunk sewer had to go through the property and within 100 feet of the green. The following spring the green had contour, by the year after that the green had beautiful wild contours. An engineering study indicted that somehow the introduction of the storm sewer changed the groundwater conditions (not by leaking but by what it disturbed).

I've seen it first hand, so I can tell you it does happen.

[Steve Curry]

I have seen pictures of a course where a whole hole moved, substantially, the theory was similar to what happened at a couple of other courses, clay lens taking on too much water and sliding.

When I was at PVGC I worked with a consultant to take extensive 3-d topographical maps of the greens complexes to have a benchmark in the event they changed.  The change that was discussed at the time was due to sand splash from the bunkers.

Steve

[TEPaul]

Maybe this is bit different but still most important to consider.

When a club is considering restoring lost green space in some cases they do need to understand that some of the peripheries of greens have changed over the years and sometimes really dramatically. The most common example is what results from constant "sand kick" that can built fronting bunker tops by FEET and also can change the green contours over those bunker tops bigtime over the years.

Some of the most dramatic examples are the 8th and 13th greens at Merion and even the 17th at PVGC. The front slope on those greens have completely changed from originally sloping back into those front bunkers to now sloping well away from them.

At my course the ultra short par 3 4th hole originally had a humongous tree at the back of it which we eventually had to take down. Now some members are claiming the tree's roots that went under the green have rotted away and the green has sunk and needs to be recontoured and softened. I say that's bullshit but I have no baseline to prove it.

When it comes to the contours of a courses's greens and future claims that the contours have changed from some reason and need to be redone I said the thing to do is to just shoot all the grades of all the greens and that way you at least have a baseline. I'm going to do that with my course. It'll take quite a lot of time but if someone says in the future some grades have changed and need to be fixed all they'll have to do is go out there and shoot the grades again and compare them to my baseline.

[Mike_Young]

TE,
I have no idea of what is what with 13 at Merion but are you telling me that the front of that green should be sloping into that bunker.....I thought the "fall away "from the bunker was a pretty good strategy on that green....
Mike

[TEPaul]

"TE,
I have no idea of what is what with 13 at Merion but are you telling me that the front of that green should be sloping into that bunker.....I thought the "fall away "from the bunker was a pretty good strategy on that green...."

Mike:

So do I. It just so happens that the way it was originally built was almost the opposite of the way it is now. It was never redesigned, it's just what has happened over about 90 years of play.