New Jersey Publics?.....

[JeffTodd]

Kevin:

Seaview is a fine resort - I also prefer the Bay to the tree-lined elements of the Pines. However, Seaview is not in the same category w the likes of Twisted Dune, IMHO.

Frankly, if the $$ were there -- a restored Atlantis would be something for all to play.

I would agree. The Bay is fun and charming little course, but with its lack of true three shot holes, and abundance of short two-shot holes where one can hit wedge on approach, it really can't stand up to many of the other options within a fairly small radius. That said, I have a soft spot for the course and play there at least once a season. It's probably a 4 on the Doak scale, but it rates much higher on the fun scale IMO.

Matt, what do you envision when you speak of a restored Atlantis? Have some holes been altered over the years, or is this just a case where it needs better conditioning and a healthy session with a chainsaw? There is no doubt that the skeleton of a fine course exists there, and the natural rolling nature of the property is rare for the region. However, based on my most recent trip there in May, you might need more than two dollar signs to get the course close to the level of several other public courses in the vicinity, the very nearby and aforementioned Sea Oaks to name one.

[Dan Herrmann]

Michael Blake,
By all means, play Hidden Creek if you can swing it.   It'll give you a little taste of Bandon Trails (not the dune-sy part!) in NJ.

I really like Hidden Creek - Thanks to Mr. Mucci for his GCA.com meeting there a couple of years ago!

[Michael Blake]

Thanks for the suggestions all.

Dan, I have played Hidden Creek (and Bandon) and it is an option the week I will be down there.  Nothing beats teeing up on #1 and seeing a W-I-D-E fairway.

Matt and Jerry, I played Twisted Dune once maybe 5 years ago and had a great time.

I'm leaning toward ACCC.  But would enjoy playing Hidden Creek again.

...To be continued

[Mike Sweeney]

Michael,

It is not as good as ACCC or Hidden Creek, but for logistics, you may want to consider Wildwood Golf and CC. It is a Stiles and Van Kleek course that has some good holes. It has been a long time, but they used to be open to reciprocal play during weekday play. I think Mike Cirba also likes it.

Again it has been years but GCA poster's Greate Bay CC by Willie Park has been upgraded and is logistically easier. Finally Stone Harbor GC should be played by everyone who wants to make fun of Tom Paul and his Big World Theory!  

[kevinT]

Matt,

I would love to hear why Seaview does not stand up to Twisted Dune in your HOP.  I would find it interesting how you would compare the 1914 design to a 10 year old design.  

Jeff,

I agree the Bay may lack three shot holes and has an abundance of two shot holes, but is that what is missing from golf today?!?!?!  Every where you go these courses are streched beyond belief.  With that said I am not hearing that the course record is beat every other week.  I'll take two shot holes with a stiff wind any day.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

Atlantis has simply become far less than what it was when I first played it over 30 years ago. Clearly, the last owners -- before the county purchaed it -- only did the barest of minimums in terms of course grooming and in preserving the strategic virtues of the layout as George F envisioned them.

Try to keep in mind you have a number of unique holes if any serious effort took place. The 2nd hole is a fine par-4 with the extreme back tee up against the bay. The long par-5 is also quite good -- the greensite for the short 6th could be upgraded -- the downhill par-3 7th is a gem of a hole.

On the back side -- the downhill par-4 10th that sweeps right could be improved. Ditto the wonderful par-5 17th and the uphill closing hole.

I agree with your contention about tree cutting. George Fazio was very good at doing his first layout and the ones that came later down the pike -- see Jupiter Hills, Butler National, etc, etc.

Will it ever happen ?

I doubt it -- and that's a true shame.

Kevin:

You are under the erroneous impression that a course built years ago automatically is ahead of another course from the most recent time era.

How does that compute as an absolute ?

I've played both courses at Seaview numerous times over 25+ years. I think the Pines is a fine layout but far from the hype others convey upon it. The enclosure with the trees is a bit too much in my mind and I don't of any of the holes there as being on the front page with the top public holes of other key layouts here in Jersey.

The Bay is a different matter. The small greens and the varying winds that blow off the Bay can make for a fun time. But, I would not rate the Bay as being among the very best public courses in the state.

Why do I say that?

The bar for quality public courses has certainly risen over the last 20-25 years. I don't how many other courses you have played statewide so all I can offer is my belief from having played all the major candidates.

Regarding Twisted Dune -- I really enjoy the layout. The course is clearly man's invention but I think the overall routing, the sheer diversity of the holes and the ever shifting wind patterns can make for a really fun time there.

Again, that's just my opinion -- if you see it otherwise so be it.

[JeffTodd]

Jeff,

I agree the Bay may lack three shot holes and has an abundance of two shot holes, but is that what is missing from golf today?!?!?!  Every where you go these courses are streched beyond belief.  With that said I am not hearing that the course record is beat every other week.  I'll take two shot holes with a stiff wind any day.

Kevin, as I said previously, I really love the Bay Course and you can count me among those who would be the last to disparage it. However, when it comes to measuring the course against others, my personal belief is that the totality of the holes has to be factored, and the Bay simply does not have the breadth of holes to test all aspects of one's game, especially the game of better players.

I consider the Bay Course to be akin to a boutique; what it does it does very well, but it doesn't have the selection that a longer and more complete course offers. Feel free to disagree, but all three Par 5's are reachable, and some with a mid-iron or less if the wind is right or the player is long enough. Forgive me if I get the routing wrong (I still can't quite get my head around the new sequence) but I count #'s 1, 4, 5, 8, 10, 12, and 16 as two-shot holes where a reasonably long hitter will be hitting 9 iron or less into the green. That leaves only four Par 4's of 390 yards or more, where most players will require a mid-iron or more to reach the green. Obviously the wind is a factor at Seaview, and with three demanding Par 3's in the mix it is more than a short game session. Further, two of the longer par 4's, #2 and #6, are as hard as they are good.

I agree that massive and over stretched courses aren't necessarily good for golf, and the small scale and walkability of the Bay Course adds to its charm and appeal. While I don't subscribe to the notion that every club in the bag must be tested in order for a course to rate highly, the abundance of driver-wedge opportunities on the Bay Course do detract from its standing as a among some of the other designs in the area. This, of course, is just my opinion.

With all of that said, the Bay Course does offer something unique and I think it's a special place. While there are a few neighboring courses that I would consider to be better courses from start to finish, they aren't as high as the Bay on my list of recommended places to play when taking or sending friends to the area. With Sea Oaks being an example, it is probably a more complete course than the Bay in terms of demands on the golfer. However, as nice as it is, it's nothing special, and a similar experience can be had at various high-end daily fee courses here in NJ, and elsewhere. The same can't be said of the Bay Course, which is why I regard it so highly despite the shortcomings I believe it has.

[David Miller]

Does anyone have thoughts on Architects?  I'm passing through the area in August and am wondering if it's a worthy stop.

[Steve Lapper]

I second what Bill Vostinak said but would add that, having played it frequently of late, the conditioning is superb and is easily the equal of any private course nearby. It's cerainly worth a stop.

[kevinT]

Jeff:

Atlantis has simply become far less than what it was when I first played it over 30 years ago. Clearly, the last owners -- before the county purchaed it -- only did the barest of minimums in terms of course grooming and in preserving the strategic virtues of the layout as George F envisioned them.

Try to keep in mind you have a number of unique holes if any serious effort took place. The 2nd hole is a fine par-4 with the extreme back tee up against the bay. The long par-5 is also quite good -- the greensite for the short 6th could be upgraded -- the downhill par-3 7th is a gem of a hole.

On the back side -- the downhill par-4 10th that sweeps right could be improved. Ditto the wonderful par-5 17th and the uphill closing hole.

I agree with your contention about tree cutting. George Fazio was very good at doing his first layout and the ones that came later down the pike -- see Jupiter Hills, Butler National, etc, etc.

Will it ever happen ?

I doubt it -- and that's a true shame.

Kevin:

You are under the erroneous impression that a course built years ago automatically is ahead of another course from the most recent time era.

How does that compute as an absolute ?

I've played both courses at Seaview numerous times over 25+ years. I think the Pines is a fine layout but far from the hype others convey upon it. The enclosure with the trees is a bit too much in my mind and I don't of any of the holes there as being on the front page with the top public holes of other key layouts here in Jersey.

The Bay is a different matter. The small greens and the varying winds that blow off the Bay can make for a fun time. But, I would not rate the Bay as being among the very best public courses in the state.

Why do I say that?

The bar for quality public courses has certainly risen over the last 20-25 years. I don't how many other courses you have played statewide so all I can offer is my belief from having played all the major candidates.

Regarding Twisted Dune -- I really enjoy the layout. The course is clearly man's invention but I think the overall routing, the sheer diversity of the holes and the ever shifting wind patterns can make for a really fun time there.

Again, that's just my opinion -- if you see it otherwise so be it.

Matt,

Where in my statement did I say that a course built in 1914 should automatically be better than a course in more recent time? Please highlight and tell me!  My point is you compare a course that can sit back and look at what everyone else has done and do it differently.  You are comparing a Ford Model T to a Ford Explorer.  The comparisons stop at it being a golf course and being public.  I also never said anything about Seaview being rated as one of the best in the state.  Maybe you were thinking of someone elses comments.  All I stated is it is a fun place to play on the Jersey shore and was surprised nobody mentioned it.  

As it goes for for the bar being raised for quality public courses you need not tell a Golf Course Superintendent that the bar is raising.  I believe I UNDERSTAND THAT!  Probably better than you will ever know.  Maybe you should play the "minor candidates"  and maybe they too can become the "major candidates" in your eyes.  

[Steve Lapper]

I second what Bill Vostinak said

An impending sign of the apocalypse or an indication that a winning lottery ticket is waiting for me at Wegman's?  

Both!

[kevinT]

Jeff,

I agree the Bay may lack three shot holes and has an abundance of two shot holes, but is that what is missing from golf today?!?!?!  Every where you go these courses are streched beyond belief.  With that said I am not hearing that the course record is beat every other week.  I'll take two shot holes with a stiff wind any day.

Kevin, as I said previously, I really love the Bay Course and you can count me among those who would be the last to disparage it. However, when it comes to measuring the course against others, my personal belief is that the totality of the holes has to be factored, and the Bay simply does not have the breadth of holes to test all aspects of one's game, especially the game of better players.

I consider the Bay Course to be akin to a boutique; what it does it does very well, but it doesn't have the selection that a longer and more complete course offers. Feel free to disagree, but all three Par 5's are reachable, and some with a mid-iron or less if the wind is right or the player is long enough. Forgive me if I get the routing wrong (I still can't quite get my head around the new sequence) but I count #'s 1, 4, 5, 8, 10, 12, and 16 as two-shot holes where a reasonably long hitter will be hitting 9 iron or less into the green. That leaves only four Par 4's of 390 yards or more, where most players will require a mid-iron or more to reach the green. Obviously the wind is a factor at Seaview, and with three demanding Par 3's in the mix it is more than a short game session. Further, two of the longer par 4's, #2 and #6, are as hard as they are good.

I agree that massive and over stretched courses aren't necessarily good for golf, and the small scale and walkability of the Bay Course adds to its charm and appeal. While I don't subscribe to the notion that every club in the bag must be tested in order for a course to rate highly, the abundance of driver-wedge opportunities on the Bay Course do detract from its standing as a among some of the other designs in the area. This, of course, is just my opinion.

With all of that said, the Bay Course does offer something unique and I think it's a special place. While there are a few neighboring courses that I would consider to be better courses from start to finish, they aren't as high as the Bay on my list of recommended places to play when taking or sending friends to the area. With Sea Oaks being an example, it is probably a more complete course than the Bay in terms of demands on the golfer. However, as nice as it is, it's nothing special, and a similar experience can be had at various high-end daily fee courses here in NJ, and elsewhere. The same can't be said of the Bay Course, which is why I regard it so highly despite the shortcomings I believe it has.

Jeff,

Now this is a conversation that I can enjoy about golf courses.  I totally understand your thoughts on the Bay.  But does ever course have to be the same??  For instance, Sea Oaks.....take away the back tees and the courses is the same as the Bay.  I appreciate your comments and I can agree with some of your points.  

[JeffTodd]

Jeff,

Now this is a conversation that I can enjoy about golf courses.  I totally understand your thoughts on the Bay.  But does ever course have to be the same??  For instance, Sea Oaks.....take away the back tees and the courses is the same as the Bay.  I appreciate your comments and I can agree with some of your points.  

Kevin,

I think we are essentially on the same page. To your point, every course most definitely does not have to be the same. I think your Model T v. Ford Explorer analogy is a good one and can be extended to the state of Atlantic City area golf. If you take away the Ford Explorer there are still plenty of other similar options on the car market that can fill the void. Similarly, we lost one course at Blue Heron Pines (the better of the two in my view), yet the golfer doesn't really suffer greatly for it. There are other  similar courses that can fill the void. But a ride in a Model T, or a round on the Bay course, is a unique experience and quite unlike any other available option. You won't break any speed records, but you'll have a great time.

[Matt_Ward]

Kevin: Here is what you said ...

"I would find it interesting how you would compare the 1914 design to a 10 year old design."

Please enough of the tap dancing -- you outlined how a 1914 course can be compared to one that's 10-years-old. Try to examine what YOU wrote. I outlined my comments on the two courses at Seaview and see Twisted Dune beyond what you find at Seaview. That's MY opinion and I outlined in some detail my thoughts on why. If you don't like them or disagree so be it.

Where does it say that courses of different time frames cannot be compared / contrasted.

Your analogy about one being a Ford Model T or Ford Explorer is wonderful wordspeak but not valid or meaningful to me. I play golf today - in 2007 and compare / contrasts based on what is there now. I don't add or take away points from any course based upon when it opened. If that's something that floats your boat so be it.

If you see Seaview Pines as being fun - by all means knock yourself out and play it again and again. I also need to point out from a value perspective that TD beats what you find at Seaview by a considerable margin.

Let me point out my statement on the rise of Jersey public golf (post 1987) comes from direct experience many times over with a full range of golf courses throughout the Garden State. I don't just talk the talk - I've walked the walk. Got it. I've played the low level garbage layouts all the way to the upscale daily fee ones that exist. The issue was about how Jersey public golf raised its profile from what existed prior to roughly 1987 or thereabouts. Twisted Dune added considerably to the quality of public golf options in the state and I see it as the best Shore course available to the public with the lone exception being ACCC.

 

[kevinT]

Matt,

You seem to take what I say and look so deep into it.  More than you have to.  All I said was I would find it interesting how you would compare something that is old and was designed where players were only hitting a ball 200 yards??  Your tone in your words is so defensive it is not funny.  You pick pick pick at everything I say.  You try to jam your opinion down throats.  It is my belief that you can not completly compare old to new and say it is the same.  That is why I love the classical and modern rankings for golf courses.  But hey I am not forcing my likes and dislikes upon you.  All I wanted to know is how you compare the two courses.  I never once said Seaview is better than Twisted or vise versa.  I never asked for you to tell me how long you have been playing these courses in the state or how you dont talk to the talk but walk the walk.  GREAT!!!!!  I don't care!  Really.  I live, breath, sleep the golf business.  SERIOUSLY! So please......settle down.....it will be okay.  

[Dan Herrmann]

You know, the more I think of it, the more I really dislike almost everything about Ballyowen.  

If it's the 2nd best in NJ, I can't imagine how far down it'd be in PA or NY  

Thanks be to Matt.  We now have the St. Matthew Ward Litany, as recorded above!  Praise Matt  

Seriously, Matt - your GHIN shows you've only played once away from your home club since June of last year - how do you know so much about the NJ publics?  And, if I'm looking up the wrong Matt Ward on GHIN, I apologize.

[kevinT]

Matt,

Please tell me why did you rank Seaview in the top 25 public in your magazine about two years ago??? Please tell me you can find this back issue to confirm.  I think it was in the same issue or one after the nice article about Superintendents and how much we like to water the golf course and take away from the way golf should be played.  Thanks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kevin T,

Before Marriot ruined a number of holes, Seaview was terrific.

Ted & Phil,

Does water in front of the tee or green, that's not really in play, affect the way you perceive and play the hole ?

Why do you think that many superior players prefer to lay up rather than go for a par 5 green in two ?

Do you think they would automatically lay up if the hole was a par 4 ?

Do you play a hole the exact same way in medal play versus match play ?

[Keith Phillips]

I happened to be at 'Knoll Indoor Tennis Club' today for a tournament my daughter was playing and couldn't help noticing the signs for 'Knoll West' - I went over to check it out and it seems that some restoration work has been completed - I walked holes 2 and 3 and got a peak at 1, 18, 10 and 9 from the clubhouse - 2 green is very cool and the Redan 3rd looks terrific - bunkers looked redone and in great shape but the turf conditions seemed average from my viewpoint.

Is the restoration complete, or does the Knoll remain a work in process.  Green fees are in the $80s on weekends for non-county-residents, which seems like a great deal for a course with that history and that location.

[George_Bahto]

kdp: things move quite slow at The Knoll ....   only the greenside bunkers have been restored and I'll start the fairway bunkers this fall.

attn Matt Ward: "suddenly" the course conditions have improved beyond belief (it's only taken about 5-yrs of constant pressure) but now we have attn to detail, proper mowing patterns, fairway and green expansions.  
pressure - pressure  !!!! (it's like running to first base dragging a piano behind you).

I need you back for a visit - call me

now we have to get the green speeds up to where the interior features will be at their full potential.

[kevinT]

Pat,

I totally agree some holes were ruined.  However, don't be so quick to blame Marriott.  Remember, Marriott DOES NOT own Seaview......they are the management company for the hotel.....the timeshares are a sister company of Marriott though.  Hotel is on the market to be sold.....like the last three years......can't agree on a price with possible buyers.  If it is sold watch for a huge amount of money to be dropped on the hotel and golf courses.

[Ted Kramer]

Kevin T,

Before Marriot ruined a number of holes, Seaview was terrific.

Ted & Phil,

Does water in front of the tee or green, that's not really in play, affect the way you perceive and play the hole ?

Why do you think that many superior players prefer to lay up rather than go for a par 5 green in two ?

Do you think they would automatically lay up if the hole was a par 4 ?

Do you play a hole the exact same way in medal play versus match play ?

*Water in front of the tee doesn't mean much to me, I don't usually have an issue from the tee.
*Water in front of the green is always in play for me, I hit a lot of shitty iron shots.
*Better players lay up when they think they'll get it closer from a favorite yardage than they will from a likely chip, putt, or pitch resulting from a less than perfect long approach.
*I don't think "automatically" belongs in the conversation.
*I think that match vs medal play would affect how the hole is played a lot more than the par designation would.

-Ted

[Patrick_Mucci]

*Water in front of the tee doesn't mean much to me, I don't usually have an issue from the tee.

At what distance would a carry over water, from the tee, affect your play ?[/color]

*Water in front of the green is always in play for me, I hit a lot of shitty iron shots.

At what distance from the green would the water cease being a factor for you ?[/color]

*Better players lay up when they think they'll get it closer from a favorite yardage than they will from a likely chip, putt, or pitch resulting from a less than perfect long approach.

Then why don't you ever see them laying up on a long par 4 ?[/color]

*I don't think "automatically" belongs in the conversation.

*I think that match vs medal play would affect how the hole is played a lot more than the par designation would.

Why ?
Wouldn't the same philosophy you espoused determine your play ?  That you play a hole the same way irrespective of par,  so why would you play it differently in match versus medal play ?

If I knew your handicap It would help me to better context your perspective.[/color]

[Ted Kramer]

*Water in front of the tee doesn't mean much to me, I don't usually have an issue from the tee.

At what distance would a carry over water, from the tee, affect your play ?[/color]

*Water in front of the green is always in play for me, I hit a lot of shitty iron shots.

At what distance from the green would the water cease being a factor for you ?[/color]

*Better players lay up when they think they'll get it closer from a favorite yardage than they will from a likely chip, putt, or pitch resulting from a less than perfect long approach.

Then why don't you ever see them laying up on a long par 4 ?[/color]

*I don't think "automatically" belongs in the conversation.

*I think that match vs medal play would affect how the hole is played a lot more than the par designation would.

Why ?
Wouldn't the same philosophy you espoused determine your play ?  That you play a hole the same way irrespective of par,  so why would you play it differently in match versus medal play ?

If I knew your handicap It would help me to better context your perspective.[/color]

*I feel very comfortable carrying the ball 240 yards from tee.
I'm quite sure I can carry it farther than that, but at 250 or so I might start thinking.

*I'm not sure about your water in front of the green question.

*I don't know that better players don't lay up on long par 4s. But I feel pretty confident saying that they don't try to hit shots that they aren't comfortable with during serious competition because of what the scorecard says; the "scoreboard" might get them out of their comfort zone, but not the scorecard. They hit shots that they believe they can pull off. That is one reason why that are good players.

*Are you serioulsy questioning the difference between strategy in match vs medal play? There are a zillion different reasons for playing more or less aggressively during match and or medal play. I don't for one second think that you disagree with the idea that match and medal play can lead to different strategic decisions having NOTHING to do with the par designation of a hole.

*I havn't played enough golf recently to have a valid handicap. I've been single digits 6-8 for the past number of years. I just shot +7 at Bulle Rock from the blue tees on Saturday through 17 holes. I hurt myself during the round and couldn't play the 18th . . .I was really bummed out as that is really one of my favorites.

-Ted

[Patrick_Mucci]

*I feel very comfortable carrying the ball 240 yards from tee.
I'm quite sure I can carry it farther than that, but at 250 or so I might start thinking.

200 gets my attention.[/color]

*I'm not sure about your water in front of the green question.

At what distance from a green does a fronting hazard begin to bother you ?

A hazard that's right up against the green is always troublesome, but, at what distance from the green, does a hazard cease being a problem ?   10 yards ?  25 Yards ?

I wonder if the ODG's placed deceptive bunkers well in front of the greens just to create doubt in the player's mind ?[/color]

*I don't know that better players don't lay up on long par 4s.


I can't recall ever seeing a better player laying up off his drive in the DZ on a long par 4[/color]

But I feel pretty confident saying that they don't try to hit shots that they aren't comfortable with during serious competition because of what the scorecard says;

That's where we disagree.
Anytime a golfer is hitting a long iron or 3-wood into a green, they can't feel that comfortable.[/color]

the "scoreboard" might get them out of their comfort zone, but not the scorecard. They hit shots that they believe they can pull off. That is one reason why that are good players.

I don't see them laying up on long par 4's, because they feel they can't pull off the required shot.  Good players usually possess good short games.[/color]

*Are you serioulsy questioning the difference between strategy in match vs medal play? There are a zillion different reasons for playing more or less aggressively during match and or medal play. I don't for one second think that you disagree with the idea that match and medal play can lead to different strategic decisions having NOTHING to do with the par designation of a hole.

I do disagree with that.

If nothing else, I've learned NOT to play the man, and to focus on playing the hole, while not ignoring the man.

It's your honor.  It's a 165 yard par 3.
How and why would you play differently in match or medal play ?

Same question on every hole you play when it's your honor, and, let's assume that your opponent outdrives you by 3 yards on every hole.  Why would you play the hole differently in match versus medal play ?[/color]

*I havn't played enough golf recently to have a valid handicap. I've been single digits 6-8 for the past number of years. I just shot +7 at Bulle Rock from the blue tees on Saturday through 17 holes. I hurt myself during the round and couldn't play the 18th . . .I was really bummed out as that is really one of my favorites.

Recently, it seems that more and more people I know have injured themselves during a round.  Most have twisted ankles and they were perfectly sober at the time.[/color]