New Jersey Publics?.....

[Steve_ Shaffer]

David

So....where did you play? It was a beautiful day.

[Dan Herrmann]

Ballyowen is very good.

I don't get the love for Ballyowen.  I played there yesterday and was underwhelmed.  The practice area was horribly maintained.  Other than the pro at the cash register, the staff wasn't very friendly.  The greens were very thatchy (like walking on a carpet pad), and the cart path only rule made for a very long day.   On a positive note, the scenery looking out to High Point State Park in the distance was wonderful.

Architecturally, it just didn't do it for me.  I know they're trying to be a links style course, but I didn't know links had inland ponds.  The bunkering was uninspired.  

Actually, the course reminds me of Greenback at Heron Lakes in Portland, OR  (which may be one of the greatest bargins in golf at $40 for a weekend round).  

Ballyowen is "OK", but definitely not worth the >$100 price.  And I can't see how it gets to be #1 or #2 in NJ.

In terms of NJ publics, I greatly preferred (in no particular order) Twisted Dune, Sand Barrens, Pine Barrens, and Architects.  

I also put Ballyowen far below Beechtree, my favorite local public course, and Wyncote, another course within 25 miles of home.  And now that I think about it, I'd much rather play Honeybrook, Jim Blaukovitch's nice family owned course not far from me.

[Steve Lapper]

Dan


I 100% concur. The routing and design is certainly solid, but conditioning (in a year where nearly every other NJ course is in stunning condition) at Ballyowen has never been consistent. I, like you, don't get the hype.

For my $$, ACCC is alone up top, followed by Pine Barrens (semi-pvt now), Twisted Dune, Architects (in the best shape it's ever been!), Hominy Hill, Sand Barrens, Neshanic Valley,etc...

[Jerry Kluger]

I wish some of you guys from that area would try Sea Oaks - I really enjoyed it and wanted to see what others think.

[Matt_Ward]

The issue with Ballyowen Dan is that when someone plays a place ONCE -- their ENTIRE impressions comes from just one visit. Clearly, you are entitled to your assertions but allow me to provide a bit more perspective -- gleaned from a longer period of time and exposure.

I've played Ballyowen no less than 20 rounds since it first opened.

Allow me to go over point-by-point what you mentioned.

First, the turf quality is generally very good to excellent most of the time. The greens are also some of the best to putt on for a public course in NJ. No doubt there have been selected instances when what I have just said is less so.

In terms of hole quality -- you simply made a blanket statement. I don't know which tees you played from either. That can make a big difference.

The 1st hole eases you into the round -- it has a nice backdrop from the tee and it provides a nice welcome to the property.

The 2nd is a solid short par-4 -- one of the better ones in public golf in NJ.

The 3rd is an interesting par-5 because you must deal with the fairway bunker that hugs the entire middle section when you play your 2nd shot.

The 4th is an average par-3 -- be sure not over club.

The 5th is better than average par-5 -- the H20 comes into play more often than not on the tee shot.

The 6th is a very demanding par-3 -- whether downwind and certainly in a headwind. The green is well contoured and the H20 first encountered at the 5th comes back into play big time.

The 7th -- especially when played from the tips (the tee is on the other side of the road) is a bear of a hole. Usually plays into the prevailing headwind and the green is a small target -- especially so when the pin is near the front.

The 8th is a good change of pace hole -- You need to slide the tee shot from left-to-right but not too much. The green sits in a mini-depression and I've seen few putts made outside 5 feet because of the internal contours.

The 9th returns to the clubhouse in grand fashion. I agree w R Whitten in that hole provides a Shinnecock Hills feel. The tee shot is quite testing because the fairway shuts down on overall width the deeper you go with the tee ball. The greensite is also appealignbecause it sits above the fairway and falls off to all sides.

The back nine is the better half at Ballyowen for me. The 10th has been played as a par-5 and as a long par-4. The tee shot is one of the better ones you face at the course. You can cut-off as much as you like -- provided -- you respect the dangers of a pull to the left side. The green is also angled diagonally from lower left to back right and anything hit over is deadsville.

As a par-5 for better players it's not that demanding. However, when played as a par-4 it really puts pressure on the tee shot and approach.

The 11th provides a different "feel" from the motif of an Irish-like course. The par-3 is very challenging -- plays longer than the card indicates and has a green that doesn't take kindly to fools play.

The 12th is likely the weakest of holes on the inner half. The tee shot is formulaic and the approach a bit better. The hole would play better if the tees were moved up a bit to encourage a much more risky tee shot.

The 13th is likely the most underrated hole at Ballyowen -- the tee shot is fairly straightforward -- but the approach must be gauged correctly to get near the flag as the green sits no less than 20 feet above the fairway.

The 14th is a solid long par-4 with mounds flanking the drive zone. Pull the shot and the second is nearly blind -- push too far right and the second increases significantly in overall distance.

The 15th is somewhat similar to the 11th but the overall distance is a bit longer and generally plays into the prevailing headwind. The lone bunker on the right gets plenty of play as players play away from the aqua that hugs the left side.

The 16th is a superb counter to the 14th -- you play back uphill on the dog-leg right and the green is especially deep.

The 17th is a bit weak as a par-5 but still offers a challenge on the tee shot as it narrows considerably the deeper you go.

The finale is well done -- a solid dog-leg right with blowing fescure for any pull shots and a demanding bunker complex in the fairway area. I'm not thrilled with the chocolate drop bunkers that dot the right side of the green. I'd much favor one continous bunker that has more of an Irish look than what you see there now. The green is long and contoured hard from left-to-right -- when placed in the rear the overall club selection can increase by 3 clubs.

All in all, I don't hold things against a course if the practice area is not well-groomed along the order of a private club. Ditto the staff situation -- although in my visits to Ballyowen they have been generally well prepared and eager to assist.

Dan, the idea that Ballyowen is FAR BELOW Beechtree is also a bit off from my take on things. We likely agre to disagree on that point. I can also say with a bit of certainty that Ballyowen is superior to the likes of Sand Barrens and Pine Barrens -- although not by much over the Bergstol layout. I do like Twisted Dune and along with ACCC would have Ballyowen among my top trio.



Jerry K:

Concur with you on Sea Oaks -- few speak about as they are too busy heading off to the usual course suspecys in and around the AC area.

[David Panzarasa]

Jerry,
 I have played Sea Oaks a ton of times in the past, and really enjoy the course. Has a very North Carolina/pinehurst feel to it,,,at least to me. And never crowded (at least whenever I have played). solid course

[Dan Herrmann]

Matt,
Thanks for your well-written reply.  

As far as Beechtree goes, if I could play 100 times at either course for free, I'd play at Beechtree 95 times.  I'll give Ballyowen 5 because I loved some of the mountain views.  

I thought the tee shot on 10 was the best on the course, but was let down by just how short the hole played - the 2nd shot was right downhill and not very long (I played from the blue tees).

To me, the course was, as Randy Jackson would say on American Idol, "just OK".

I think we'll just need to agree to disagree

PS - I thought the beer commercials on the cart really gave a bad impression.  I've never seen multiple Coors Light stickers on every cart before.   It has absolutely zero to do with architecture, of course, but it really turned me off.    (I could care less if somebody has a beer on the course - I just don't want beer advertising plastered on the cart.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

You need to focus on the key point I made -- a one-time play provides a snapshot of THAT day alone. I don't disagree you will have impressions -- some are very detailed and accurate in your mind. I've played just about all of the Jersey public courses quite a few times -- especially the likes of Ballyowen.

If you played the course a few more times you might have a change of heart from your initial thoughts. You might not.

One other thing -- I have said to management there that the 10th is really a par-4 -- even from the tips given the elevated tee and the nature of how the hole slopes away. However, when played as a par-4 it really puts even more pressure on the tee shot in order to be in the appropriate position for the approach.

[Ted Kramer]

. . . .

One other thing -- I have said to management there that the 10th is really a par-4 -- even from the tips given the elevated tee and the nature of how the hole slopes away. However, when played as a par-4 it really puts even more pressure on the tee shot in order to be in the appropriate position for the approach.

Matt,

If the goal is to shoot the lowest score possible, how does changing the par figure for the hole, "put even more pressure on the tee shot . . ."

-Ted

[Matt_Ward]

Ted:

If you have a par-5 hole -- the pressue to get the tee shot further down the fairway and in position for an easier approach becomes even greater.

I don't know if you have played the hole -- but as a par-5 the player could easily play a fairway metal or hybrid and aim to the right center of the fairway and minimize -- if not eliminate the danger points that lurk down the left side.

As a par-4 you really need to play close to the turning point of the hole and with that you elevate the possibility that such features do come into play.

Think of it this way -- if the 17th at TOC was played as a par-5 -- as it was through the 1964 Open Championship -- the players would not need to attack the green with their second shots -- they could opt to play to the far right and avoid the Road bunker and have a clear shot into the target with their 3rd shots.

Ballyowen's 10th hole is well done -- but as a par-5 -- given the elevation change presented and the strength of the top players it would be better served to play as a par-4.

[Ted Kramer]

Ted:

If you have a par-5 hole -- the pressue to get the tee shot further down the fairway and in position for an easier approach becomes even greater.

I don't know if you have played the hole -- but as a par-5 the player could easily play a fairway metal or hybrid and aim to the right center of the fairway and minimize -- if not eliminate the danger points that lurk down the left side.

As a par-4 you really need to play close to the turning point of the hole and with that you elevate the possibility that such features do come into play.

Think of it this way -- if the 17th at TOC was played as a par-5 -- as it was through the 1964 Open Championship -- the players would not need to attack the green with their second shots -- they could opt to play to the far right and avoid the Road bunker and have a clear shot into the target with their 3rd shots.

Ballyowen's 10th hole is well done -- but as a par-5 -- given the elevation change presented and the strength of the top players it would be better served to play as a par-4.

I guess we just disagree.
If I am competing against other players, or my own personal bests, the par designation on the hole doesn't ever mean a thing to me. I don't ever find myself competing with the par designation of any hole . . .

-Ted

[Matt_Ward]

That's great for you Ted -- then facilities can simply list yardages for the hole without par designations.

[Ted Kramer]

Matt,

Honest question:

Do you ever play a par 5 with the intention of reaching it in 2?
Have you ever played a par 4 with the strategy to hit the green on your 3rd shot?

-Ted  

[Dan_Callahan]

Given 10 rounds to split between Beechtree and Ballyowen, I would do 3 at the former and 7 at the latter. Beechtree is a good solid course that I like very much. Ballyowen is very different from most other courses in the Northeast (almost a tamed down Royal New Kent), and for that reason I would opt for it more often.

[Matt_Ward]

Ted:

Yes, I've played par-5 holes with the intent on reaching them in two shots.

And there have been times when playing a par-4 that I have been happy to hit the green with my 3rd shot. I can name plenty of such holes in Ireland and Scotland where either situation can apply.

Ted, you simply said that par designation is not relevant to you. Fine. For you and other like-minded people.

For others -- the par designation of a hole is important in terms of how they view the challenges presented. It may impact the way they play the hole.

If one were to carry out what you have said -- facilities should simply the yardage from various tee boxes and forget any linkage to par for such holes.

[Ted Kramer]

Ted:

Yes, I've played par-5 holes with the intent on reaching them in two shots.

And there have been times when playing a par-4 that I have been happy to hit the green with my 3rd shot. I can name plenty of such holes in Ireland and Scotland where either situation can apply.

Ted, you simply said that par designation is not relevant to you. Fine. For you and other like-minded people.

For others -- the par designation of a hole is important in terms of how they view the challenges presented. It may impact the way they play the hole.

If one were to carry out what you have said -- facilities should simply the yardage from various tee boxes and forget any linkage to par for such holes.

Fair enough. My only point was that changing the par designation of hole doesn't really change the amount of pressure that I feel on any of my shots.

The first hole at Lido is about 470 yards. It used to be called a par 4, a tough opening par for most. The card now reads par 5. I don't play the hole any differently. I don't feel any less pressure on the 1st tee, and I'm no happier with a 5 than I used to be . . .

-Ted

[Matt_Ward]

Ted:

If you play the 10th at Ballyowen as a par-5 -- it certainly changes your strategy as opposed to playing the hole as a par-4. That's fairly straightforward in my book.

Ditto if the par for the 17th at TOC is a par-5 instead of a par-4.

I don't doubt that golf is game where the TOTAL number of strokes if paramount. But, par for each hole is indeed listed as a reference point. If you chose to ignore it -- that's your prerogative.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ted & Matt,

Years ago, the 7th on the East nine at Ridgewood was an exceedingly difficult hole.

A 470 yard dogleg left, well bunkered off the tee, uphill par 4 to a narrow green that was also well bunkered.

As a par 4, I'd definitely try to give the drive some extra distance.

As a par 5, I wouldn't try to give it extra distance, I'd try to put my normal swing on the drive.

I believe that the extra shot (par 5 vs par 4) provides an internal comfort zone that diminishes the pressure on the golfer's drive, especially in the psychology of medal play.

Perhaps others view it differently

[Michael Blake]

Back to NJ publics...

I'll be in North Wildwood the week of Aug 4th and will likely play just once.

I've played Hidden Creek, really liked it, and am lucky enough to be able to play again if I'd like.  Not a bad last resort choice.

But I'm thinking about trying something I haven't played.

Suggestions?

Atlantic City CC?
Cape May National?

[Jerry Kluger]

Michael: Hidden Creek is not public.  Atlantic City is well worth playing - great old course brought up to date by Tom Doak.  Twisted Dune is liked by many including myself - very different but also totally manufactured.  Consider Sea Oaks up the road a bit which is public and really good.  If you can swing it, Galloway National is private and is one of Fazio's best.

[Matt_Ward]

Michael --

On the public scene be sure to play Twisted Dune -- Cape May National has a number of fine holes -- the 18th especially -- but often times can be a mix bag in terms of course conditioning.

I too agree w Jerry regarding Sea Oaks -- gets little attention. If you are a history buff on course designs you might also sample George Fazio's first design -- formerly called Atlantis now Ocean County GC at Atlantis in Tuckerton.

ACCC is also a gem to play -- well done restoration / upgrade by Tom Doak.

[Phil Benedict]

Ted & Matt,

Years ago, the 7th on the East nine at Ridgewood was an exceedingly difficult hole.

A 470 yard dogleg left, well bunkered off the tee, uphill par 4 to a narrow green that was also well bunkered.

As a par 4, I'd definitely try to give the drive some extra distance.

As a par 5, I wouldn't try to give it extra distance, I'd try to put my normal swing on the drive.

I believe that the extra shot (par 5 vs par 4) provides an internal comfort zone that diminishes the pressure on the golfer's drive, especially in the psychology of medal play.

Perhaps others view it differently

Interesting commentary on how an artificial construct, par, affects how a good player approaches a hole.  It isn't really a rational approach to the hole which should be played in a manner that minimizes the expected score on the hole regardless of what par is.  

[Ted Kramer]

Ted & Matt,

Years ago, the 7th on the East nine at Ridgewood was an exceedingly difficult hole.

A 470 yard dogleg left, well bunkered off the tee, uphill par 4 to a narrow green that was also well bunkered.

As a par 4, I'd definitely try to give the drive some extra distance.

As a par 5, I wouldn't try to give it extra distance, I'd try to put my normal swing on the drive.

I believe that the extra shot (par 5 vs par 4) provides an internal comfort zone that diminishes the pressure on the golfer's drive, especially in the psychology of medal play.

Perhaps others view it differently

Interesting commentary on how an artificial construct, par, affects how a good player approaches a hole.  It isn't really a rational approach to the hole which should be played in a manner that minimizes the expected score on the hole regardless of what par is.  

I find it interesting too.

-Ted

[kevinT]

All this talk and NO SEAVIEW?!?!?  I am amazed.  I thought we would get one mention.  I am hurt. =)

[Matt_Ward]

Kevin:

Seaview is a fine resort - I also prefer the Bay to the tree-lined elements of the Pines. However, Seaview is not in the same category w the likes of Twisted Dune, IMHO.

Frankly, if the $$ were there -- a restored Atlantis would be something for all to play.