The Trump Courses

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I think you hit the nail on the head when you spoke of "isolation".  A lot of clients speak of having each hole separated from the others (like at Pine Valley, some continue) -- I don't know why they want it that way, but they do.  That makes easy green-to-tee walks much less likely.

Expected golf cart use also increases the green-to-tee walks.  Even if you are trying to address both at once, it's often the case that the path will come between green and tee, and in keeping the path out of play on the approach shot, you are automatically putting the tee further away.  It's not a coincidence that the courses which have been mentioned as prime examples of short green-to-tee walks (Friars Head, Ballyneal, Sebonack) have NO cart paths.

[jeffwarne]

Tom,
It's been my experience (and probably yours as well) that the less you know about golf-the more you want each and every hole to be a separate experience (or
that could be code for not wanting to be observed while "playing")
However,as the golfer is educated and or travels around a bit he begins to see the beauty of an open landscape, the cameraderie of not having your own private segregated holes,as well as the added strategy and playability.

Or,for those that don't travel, you just open up their course and they learn to love it-in fact it usually ends up being their idea

[Steve Lapper]

At the risk of putting this thread and it's topic into the league of "ad nauseum," I have but a few questions for that Jersey Golfer crew:

Matt,

    How can you tell us that you've "throughly reviewed the frontal teeing areas -...and they only require 100yd carries." Was that the case on #16 or #17? I don't think so. On 16 it's more like 175-190yds and that still leaves an older, junior or female player with a 200+ yard shot into a "boomerang" green that is false-fronted and not at all receptive to longer shots. You and Bill failed on this one, and the opinions of most of the Trump members backs my point up. Reception of shots on #7 suffer similarly.
Yes, the pros won't have that problem, but if you choose to defend it from that perspective, this is a course better suited for them and not the 99.9% of all other golfers. Interestingly, you could not say the same about places like Plainfield, Pine Valley, Hollywood, etc...
 
I don't disagree with your assessment of the scale of TN..it is grand and vast. It is indeed a good Fazio and the bunkering and greens among his best. If this is a Jersey Golfer "9" in NJ, then what do you give to Plainfield, Essex Cty, Hollywood, Ridgewood, ACCC etc.... put it out on your "new" website...or better yet, put it up here on GCA (much more likely to happen quicker than on the content-stagnant JG site...and that's the nature of the on-line world, not any NYC 60sec. )

Bill,

  Tell us all what a "Mountain Ridge" type of green-to-tee walk is? In fact, tell us all when the LAST TIME YOU PLAYED THERE was? You've had an axe to grind with this club for quite some time and won't respond, even in IM's, to when you were last there. Bottom line: I don't think you've been there for some time.

I'll speak for Pat Mucci and myself when we tell you that since the resoration work by Ron Pritchard and the installation of possibly the best new greenskeeper in the Northeast, the place plays firm and fast 99% of the time and plays wonderfully. Wayyyy better than many of those other courses you so effusively praise.

Also, please tell us how Trump hole pairs like #1/#9, #5/#6, #13/#18 are "isolated" and how one cannot "block a drive and find it on another fairway." My bet is you cannot as stray drives from the lesser# holes frequently find themselves on the larger # neighbors. I really don't think you were acutely observational during your reviewing round, regardless of whether it was a Cuban or Lobster sandwich.



   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve Lapper,

One of the things I noticed about # 16 was that there was no fairway or safe area short of the water.

And, George Zahringer, a pretty decent player, couldn't make it over the water from the back tee.  And, there was no wind.

Into the wind, I doubt many can.

I don't think it's a member friendly golf course.
And, I don't use that term in the context of fairness or dumbing down.  I just think it's too hard for most golfers even if they're playing from tees commensurate with their ability.

I think it may be better suited for championship play.

For a new golf course it's very well conditioned, which is a plus for all members and guests.

With respect to the non-golf aspects, it's terrific.

But, the golf course seems too hard.
That's why I'm anxious to see the new golf course, which will be an original, not an inherited design.

I would be surprised if that golf course wasn't more user friendly.

As to your assessment of Mt Ridge, I agree completely.
It's a wonderful golf course.
Very well conditioned with Fast & Firm being the constant objective.
Prichard's work was very good within the confines of his mission, and, the work continues.
I thought the tee lengthening was also well done.

It's a golf course that members, guests and pros can enjoy.
It offers challenge, yet fun for every level of golfer.

To me, two tests that tend to indicate a golf course's merit are as follows:

# 1  Do I want to go back to the first tee when walking off of
       the 18th green ?
# 2  Would I enjoy playing it every day ?

When you can answer both of those questions in the affirmative, I believe you've found a terrific golf course...... for yourself.

So, I put those two questions to those who evaluate golf courses.

With respect to TN, what are your answers ?

[HamiltonBHearst]

Why ask about specific architectural features when the writer of the article was more concerned with lunch?  Glad Matt Ward can remember what he ate and slapping Trump's back but has nary a remembrance as to what is in the ground.

I would be interested in what the non-golf elements were that made this course so "classy".

Seems like Matt Ward is making his play for Trump hosting his NJ Golfer company picnic.  Actually, maybe that would be a good thing because then he could see how the course plays for  the average player.  

Even better Maybe Matt should acompany the Donald and his 2-handicap around the course from 7500 yards.  Of course, we would then have a new NJ golfer magazine rating of "10" on the club.

[Steve Lapper]

Pat,

    The forced & severe carry on 16 is EXACTLY what I was highlighting...although that seemed to escape those good guys and so observational Jersey Golfer reviewers. I played it from the tips with George Zahringer's alter-ego (Peter Z.) and he barely got to the grass. He made 5 with three excellent shots and shot 78 from the tips. Played it a few weeks back with another prominent local amateur (34yrs old and long...avg's 290+ off the tee). He went to the back tee, striped it, left himself 195, hit a perfect 5 iron to a front pin, hit 5-8 ft right of the pin and  the ball ran off the inside of the boomerrang, moaning that it repelled as good a shot as he could muster.....must be great design according to Jersey Golfer .

  By the way, has anyone ever "picked-up" a copy of Jersey Golfer? I've never seen one, other than through the mail. Never seen a current one laying around a locker room either. When I asked our golf industry PR professional about it, she said: "Not considered an important periodical." That might well sum up my thoughts about their architectual review as well.

Hammy,

    There is little that could possibly considered "classy" about anything Trump. The club's facilities are quite nice and certainly lavish, but "classy"?? No way! Gaudy is a much better adjective for all things Trump.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Seems like Matt Ward is making his play for Trump hosting his NJ Golfer company picnic.  

Hammy,

You were recently sniffing out access to yachts clubs in Westchester, so what is the difference?   Maybe you and Matt would get along quite well at the next rater conference.

[HamiltonBHearst]

I pay a per foot charge when using yachting facilities, have never been comped and have never written a review.  Throw a few Cuban Sandwiches at him and Matt Ward will be rating the 79th street Yacht Basin a "9".

[George Pazin]

I disagree with Matt A LOT about golf course architecture and golf courses themselves, but never for a second have I ever thought he was influenced by side amenities at a club.

As for TNB, I have a good friend who's a long single digit handicapper and he said the course is just too hard for him to enjoy on a regular basis. Of course, another mutual friend of ours joined for that very reason (the difficulty), among others.

Sounds like horses for courses.

[Mike_Sweeney]

I pay a per foot charge when using yachting facilities, have never been comped and have never written a review.  Throw a few Cuban Sandwiches at him and Matt Ward will be rating the 79th street Yacht Basin a "9".

Jesus Hamilton,

How does a guy like you even know about the 79th Street basin? Only new money guys go to The West Side. Don't tell me you are a New Money Guy and a Rater? What next?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve Lapper,

I actually liked the 16th green, but, not at the end of that hole.  It's a neat green, narrowed at the rear and bunkered at the right front with falloff left and long.

The woods are immediately beside and behind the green which makes the approach very difficult from afar..

I hit my best drive of the day and had 150 to the middle with the hole cut in the back.  I hit a 7 iron to try to stay in the fat part of the green.  However, I was playing from the very front of the blue tees..

With respect to the "Jersey Golfer" I like it.

They devote an inordinate amount of space to architecture, golf courses and the like.   It's something this site would like.

I'm just not in agreement with the evaluative opinion on TN that appeared in one edition.

If the object was to create a difficult golf course, they succeeded, but, when a course is too difficult, and produces a few X's on a card, it loses its primary function, the blending of challenge with fun, and allowing the golfer to walk off the 18th green with his dignity in tact, even if it's a little ruffled.

[Matt_Ward]

George P:

You are 1000000% correct about there not being any quid pro quo with my visit to TN / Bedminster and the comments I offered about the course on this particular thread.

Hamilton simply loves to feed the fire with tales that, he believes, if told long enough and loud enough, will ipso facto become true.

Great theater indeed -- but no substance.

George -- I'd love for you to play the course and play from an appropriate set of markers and see what you think. Maybe The Donald can accomodate you and have the G4 standing by in Pittsburgh. Since Hammy believes The Donald and I are an item I'll be sure to put in a good word about you.

P.S. He may even throw in a cute Czech girl too !!!

Steve Lapper:

Time is short for me now -- you can be SURE I will be responding in great detail to your comments / re: TN Bedminster.

Just one thing -- Steve, layoff the negative tact about Jersey Golfer. We are not an advertorial publication -- like so many are which use the pretense of editorial articles as nothing more than ad placements. There are plenty of publications that simply trade there pages for nothing more than the ringing sound of dollars they can pull in from advertisers. We don't do that period. You see too many PR professionals -- maybe the one you spoke to -- expect coverage that is always glowing regarding what they are promoting. We may agree about a given course, product or person's involvement, but we reserve the right to disagree.

We take pride in being able to provide an independent take on what's happening within the state.

In regards to the Website -- we don't have the staff or $$ at present to update it to your satisfaction. Would we like to have sites comparable to Digest and Golf Magazine? Absoluetly. Unfortunately, we cannot do that at this time.

I know what it takes to keep a publication growing and my partner / publisher and I enjoy putting our thoughts together about people, places and events within the state. We've done it for 16 years and when compared to the shelf life of other state / regional publications that's not bad.

Bashing is a convenient attack plan in the political theater -- I would hope you would show a bit more polish when you knock the efforts of others. I have no issue with your different opinion on the merits / lackthereof of TN / Bedminster but before you throw bricks at what others are doing try to walk in their shoes first.

Hamilton Hearst:

Try reading what I wrote -- although you do so well in the clown's role with your comic relief.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

Noone wants to be an ungreatful guest, but, surely, you have to recognize some of the shortcomings in the golf course, especially as they relate to the "member" golfer.