[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt & Redanman,

There were holes and features that I liked, so I don't want you to think that my comments are a blanket condemnation.

However, when a golf course is proclaimed to be great, it has to withstand evaluative scrutiny and criticism.

Holes # 5 and 6 were a nice tandem, fairly unique, and
# 8 has great potential and is very interesting.

Better than Baltusrol Lower ?

That's more than a stretch.

All too often Baltusrol Lower is viewed in the sole context of the back tees.

From the middle or member tees it's an interesting, challenging and fun golf course.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

I don't see the Lower as being some testament to compelling architecture. I've played it numerous time over a number of years and I state that from more than just the "back tee" perspective. That doesn't mean it's a dog track -- it just means, I believe, that people have confused the hosting of majors with architectural greatness.

That doesn't diminish what the facility has clearly provided to the game of golf as a host site for some of the game's premier events. The PGA Championship was well done and a most deserving champion was crowned. But having the desire and facilities to host such events is one thing -- having a layout that is among the very best in NJ from a strictly architectural perspective is quite another IMHO.

With that said -- the desire to morph the Lower into some 21st century candidate as a design of vintage quality doesn't ring home for me -- in some ways thise desire to "remain in the picture" has simply meant added length for the sake of length and little in terms of overall character being enhanced.

The Lower is long, no doubt, but save for the unique back-to-back par-5's closing holes the rest of the layout is fairly ho-hum with little that causes the pulse to beat faster with anticipation. I also believe the par-3 4th is one of the most overrated holes of its kind. Candidly, the story of Trent Jones and what he did on the hole has simply added to its fanfare --and I can certainly appreciate what he did with the hole design wise and when he holed out that memorable day.

Hosting majors is one entirely different matter when compared to compelling architecture. The Lower brought in Rees Jones for some upgrades / modernization, call it what one will. The outcomes have been a mixed bag at best. You can likely recall the discussion of the fairway bunker complex on the 18th on the Lower -- it simply doesn't match up.

I'm not suggesting Bedminster is some sort of poster child for architectural greatness -- but if I had to choose where I would play ten rounds I'd take the Bedminster layout no less than seven times to three for the Lower.

Steve L:

How nice -- we can agree !

redanman:

Good point on the inane back tee at the 18th at Bedminster. Playing from the 550-yard mark does bring into play a vast array of different options.

[Steve Lapper]

Good point on the inane back tee at the 18th at Bedminster. Playing from the 550-yard mark does bring into play a vast array of different options.

BTW.. One of those "options" brought into play is a high hook into the beautiful Trumpian swimming pool.....seems that can and does happen over there. I'm sure quite a few MILF's thought they were being hunted by a "Sergio" this summer!!!

[Jin Kim]

Matt mentioned a Met Golfer article above on Trump.  It's online now:

http://www.mgagolf.org/intraclub/query/catquery.html?doc_number=6809

Mostly a fluff piece that tries to portray Trump as a golf visionary.

[Jin Kim]

BTW. the article mentions that there are rumours Trump's trying to buy Hamilton Farms.

[John Kavanaugh]

Matt mentioned a Met Golfer article above on Trump.  It's online now:

http://www.mgagolf.org/intraclub/query/catquery.html?doc_number=6809

Mostly a fluff piece that tries to portray Trump as a golf visionary.

Our desire and soon to be quest is to see the article our own redanman penned for The Jersey Golfer.  I heard Jose Eber couldn't have put more fluff in a piece.

[Sean Leary]

Trump has won two club championships at his own courses. Must be flighted by net worth rather than handicap. I've seen him play at the AT&T a bit and he isn't very good...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

I'd take Baltusrol Lower 9-1.

From the member's or regular back tees it's an interesting golf course, and I do believe that a good number of holes jump out at you.

# 2, # 3, # 4, # 9, # 11, # 12, # 13, # 15, # 16, # 17 and
# 18.

In addition, the green complexes and bunkering are superior to TN, although, I like many of those greens.

One of the comments I heard from a number of golfers was that there weren't any distinctive holes.

I'd disagree with that as I thought # 5, # 6, # 8 and # 16 were distinctive.

Forget about length at Baltusrol Lower.
Nonone plays from the tips and scores anything close to their handicap.  The course from the tips is meant for one golfer, the PGA Tour Player.

But, from the regular back tees or the middle tees it's an interesting golf course.

If you compare the par 5's, par 3's and par 4's at both courses, I think you'd have to give the nod to BL.

In addition, since you're harping on the length added to BL, don't forget that TN is now at 7,560, which is far longer than BL.

[Tim Pitner]

Trump has won two club championships at his own courses. Must be flighted by net worth rather than handicap. I've seen him play at the AT&T a bit and he isn't very good...

I've seen/heard it reported that Trump is a 1-2 handicap.  I've also seen his swing and I find that really hard to believe.  Anything's possible, of course, but that sure looks like a vanity handicap.  I suppose he can afford one.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim Pitner,

He's not a 1 or a 2, but then again, how many golfers are 1's or 2's ?

He enjoys playing golf, just like the rest of us.

[Tom Huckaby]

Trump's index currently is 4.4, playing out of Winged Foot.  Look him up on ghin.com.

And as a current 3.7 who looks like a 15 at least, I shall cast no aspersions on anyone.

You go, Donald.

 

[Sean Leary]

Trump's index currently is 4.4, playing out of Winged Foot.  Look him up on ghin.com.

And as a current 3.7 who looks like a 15 at least, I shall cast no aspersions on anyone.

You go, Donald.

 

All 5 scores he has posted since 2002 make him a 4.4.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

Enjoy the 9-1 preference you have for the Lower -- I'll stick to my guns on the split I mentioned previously. Candidly, TF did a super job for The Donald there -- although I concur with Bill V in regards to the par-5 situation with the 18th back tee is simply miscast.

We see things VASTLY different if you think the Lower has the better greensites and bunkering patterns.

I find the course to be one of Tillie's least innovative
designs -- minus the unique back-to-back par-5 finish. Winged Foot / West and Bethpage Black, two other Tillie layouts are miles beyond it architecturally IMHO.

[Mike_Cirba]

It's interesting to me that some of the criticism seems picaune, and it's mixed with admissions that it is comparable in many ways and grudgingly even better than Baltusrol Lower in some accounts.  That seems like pretty lofty company to me for a brand new course.

I have to wonder if it was built by someone not named Donald if the tone of the discussion wouldn't be quite different.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

It wasn't designed under "The Donald's" reign.
National Fairways and/or the original developer retained Fazio.
"The Donald" basically inherited the previous routing.

I don't favorably compare the golf course to BL, Matt Ward does.

The par 3's are redundant, the par 5's so-so according to Redanman and Matt Ward, and there seems to be a lack of memorable holes.

As to Winged Foot and Bethpage Black being better than Baltusrol Lower, that's got nothing to do with the comparison of BL with TN.  

I think it's a difficult course to walk.
John Kirk says that that's one of his critical criteria.

Is it a good course ?
Noone's saying it isn't.
I"m just saying that I don't see the merits of the lofty praise that's been postured by some on this site.

Matt Ward,

I don't think I could tire of playing BL.
I don't think I could say the same of TN.

And, the critical test for me is:

After leaving the 18th green do I want to head directly to the 1st tee ?

TN gets a NO from me.

But, you may feel otherwise.
We all like different golf courses for different reasons.

I feel the same way about Galloway.
Once is enough for me.

I tend to like sporty courses, and I don't think that's Fazio's forte.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

I think I know what you love in golf courses and I tend to be simpatico.

However, perhaps my range is a bit broader (you might argue that I'm less judicious) because Trump National and Galloway National are two of my very favorite courses in New Jersey.  I think the former is in my top five, and I raised a few eyebrows last year by stating that opinion.  

It's too late at night for me to re-type the analysis I wrote here last year, or debate your contentions on a hole by hole basis, but I will say as someone who has been accused of being a "Fazio basher" that I could play it every day and I also believe it contains some of the most original and envelope-pushing work I've seen from TF.   Holes such as 3,5!,6,7,8,14!!!,15!,16!!!, and 18 are all not only memorable, but ultimately thought-provoking and strategically interesting.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

I'm not saying that Galloway isn't a good golf course, it's just not my cup of tea.

I could play it every day, but, if I did, I'd wish that I was playing somewhere else.

I know we disagree on this and Hidden Creek, which I could play every day, 36 holes a day.

Again, I tend to like "sporty" golf courses and I think Galloway and TN don't fall into the sporty category, although, I thought that the 6th hole at TN was very sporty, as was
# 11.

I recently played the West Course at Westchester.

It was cool, windy and there was NO roll.
I played from the back tees and played well.
I liked the golf course,
But, I wouldn't want to play it every day.

I could play Maidstone, GCGC, Hidden Creek, Wild Horse, Atlantic City, The Creek, Piping Rock and NGLA every day, so perhaps that will give you a sense of my preferences for "Sporty" golf courses.

[George Pazin]

I could play Maidstone, GCGC, Hidden Creek, Wild Horse, Atlantic City, The Creek, Piping Rock and NGLA every day, so perhaps that will give you a sense of my preferences for "Sporty" golf courses.

Looks more like a preference for great courses!

Mike C -

How would you compare Trump to Baltusrol Lower? You wrote one of the more persuasive posts on the latter a few years ago, I still think of it each time I read someone who feels its ranking is due to its legacy.

[Kevin Pallier]

I hate par 5's at 1, 9, 10 or 18, but I have to live with them because
"architects like to ease people into rounds and give them a chance for birdie on 18". YUCK!  

redanman
Can you please elaborate why you hate such numbered holes as P5's ?

Sure

Well, for one, the reason I mentioned. First and tenth par 5 birdie? More like Double.

Par 5 holes usually play much slower than par 3's or 4's even allowing for the difference in 3 vs. 1 and 2 shot holes. (Proportionality excluded is waht I am trying to say)  I think the reason is that too often players mis-understand how to play 5's effectively and certainly don't strategize.

-Try too hard off the tee, more lost balls, more looking

-wait for green to clear to bust a "on-in-two" shot and don't pull it off. More looking ...

-I think more players wind up in greenside bunkers on 5's and even worse the "layup area bunkers".

-par 5's usually have the least interesting strategic implications and tend to be more penal than heroic or strategic leading to such errors in management/judgement.


By their being the first or last hole on a ine, even if you "start onthe back, the play slowing effect is magnified.  Pair it with a difficult par 3 and you really have a recipe for slow play.

Par 5 finishers, bottleneck the end of the nine or 18.

Just my HO after 45 years of playing this game.  I knwo many disagree.

redanman

I for one disagree and actually prefer such holes on the scorecard as opening and closing holes to nine's. They can be played a number of different ways and therein lies the strategy does it not ?

Actually, your reasoning doesn't make much sense - it doesn't matter where such holes fall in the round their strategy or slow play issues as you so put them remain do they not?

The points you raise seem more against P5's themselves as opposed to their sequencing.....each to their own I suppose.

 

[Matt_Ward]

George P:

Yes, legacy is a factor and sometimes people confuse the two.

So much of a club's standing (in the minds of many golfers) is tied to the factor in having hosted major events. The Baltusrol membership is to be saluted for their contributions to the game and their desire to be a place where golf history has been created -- see the two Nicklaus triumphs as case in point.

However, the hosting of majors is not in and of itself a testament to compelling architecture. I find the Lower as weaker parcel of the two-18-hole layouts there. I see little in terms of the caliber of the greens and bunker styles versus the likes of other Tillie layouts -- most notably other Jersey gems such as Ridgewood, Somerset Hills, to name just two.

In sum -- there are aspects of Baltusrol Lower which are quite interesting -- I alluded to the closing back-to-back par-5's, as one clear example. The bulk of what is there simply doesn't present enough of what Tillie has done elsewhere and to great success.

I salute Pat's outlining of his preferences -- clearly what TF does provide -- and we are talking about his best works in Galloway National most certainly, and less so for some with Trump National / Bedminster -- although I do like the course a good bit more than many.

Clearly, when The Donald's name is entered into the scene there are many people who are already panning the ocurse as nothing more than a blowhard attempt by the man to cement himself among the top tier layouts.

There's plenty of architectural dynamics at work with the Bedminster layout -- and if The Donald happens to be the beneficiary of such a situation more power to him.

Tom Fazio is often the poster child for whipping by many here on GCA. He has done some outstanding layouts and I agree with Mike and a few others on the totality of what he did at Galloway National. While I would not add Bedminster as an equal to Galloway I would dare say the course is very close in what it offers -- provided, as Bill V indicated previously, that people understand their limitations and play the appropriate tee boxes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

As I indicated, DT essentially inherited TF's work.

What will be interesting will be the design of the new golf course, a golf course where DT and TF have a blank canvas.

I happen to like a golf course that opens and closes with a par 5.  In that respect BL and TN are similar, as is Somerset Hills with the original nines.

One also has to remember that the current Lower course is not the original golf course, having been altered considerably over time, including when the club went to 36 holes.

I will bet you that more than a few golfers fall INTO the water fronting/flanking the 12th green each season.  I don't find the steepness of that greenside bank to be an architectural merit.

With respect to the bashing of DT, he creates that atmosphere with extreme or over the top promotional statements.  To declare that the golf course in Palm Beach is the best course in Florida, or that the one in New York is the best in New York, or that the one in New Jersey is the best new course in the last 20 years, is what attracts the bashing.

Each of the three courses I played had elements and holes that I liked, and, that I didn't like.  But, again, my test, the one that works for me, is:
After finishing play on the 18th green, do I want to head straight for the 1st tee ?
I can't answer yes with respect to the three courses I've played.
That doesn't mean that they're not good golf courses, only that they don't pass MY personal relative value test.

As I said, I'm anxious to see how the new course turns out.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

At the end of the day -- whether DT inherited TF or not is merely a sidepoint IMHO. So what? He still had input on what was eventually completed and it's his name NOW that is associated with the property.

I give credit to Trump in seeing the sheer possibilities of the total property site there. Clearly, the coming second 18 has some heavy duty territory to cover in order to be placed as a co-equal layout. We shall see when it comes on the scene sometime in '08.

I don't doubt DT makes brash comments -- it's part of his mantra to be a showboat. However, when the goods of Bedminster are truly examined the totality of the product speaks loud and clear to me. I can separate Trump's noise self promotion from the real deal of a first rate layout. I would hope others can do likewise.

I think you also need to cut some slack on TF designs because you simply seem to dismiss them. No doubt personal preferences play a role but I can easily say that after playing 18 I would love a return engagement at Galloway National and Trump / Bedminster. Baltusrol / Lower is a fine layout but when held to the highest of standards as architecture of the most compelling type -- I don't see it and others have opined no less than I on that matter.

At the end of the day -- to each his own.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

How quickly you forget.

I was one of the few to defend and champion Fazio's work at Shadow Creek.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat Mucci:

Yes, I remember your defense of TF's work at Shadow Creek but frankly you need to play a few others in his portfolio because IMHO Shadow Creek is more about the tenacity of man to overcome Mother Nature to build what's there now. That to me, at least, is the major headline that comes out of its existence.

The strategic pulse of Shadow Creek is a good bit lower than a number of his other stellar efforts (which I'll be glad to name) -- you can look locally most notably at Galloway National as a clear example of what I just stated.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

I've played Galloway more than a few times.
But, if asked to play it every day, I'd politely decline.
It's a good golf course, but, not my cup of tea.

Shadow Creek, before all of the trees matured, was a pretty good golf course.  Although, I didn't like the "Merionization" of the bunkers at Shadow Creek.

In addition to Shadow Creek and Galloway, I've played Emerald Dunes, The Vintage Club, Jupiter Hills, Lake Nona, Caves Valley, Great Gorge, and the Trump Courses, so I think I have a reasonable feel for his work.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()