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Sean_A

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BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« on: October 04, 2006, 05:01:28 PM »
Everything at Hoylake was was done very well and I am sure I speak for all when I say that Philip did a cracking job.  I think everybody had a wonderful time over the few days and the dinner/talk on Tuesday was outstanding.  As expected, Hoylake impressed everybody and was the showpiece of the week.  Wallasey may have surprised some folks.  The club doesn't get much print, but that isn't for lack of a quality course.  In any case, Wallasey was a good contrast to Hoylake.  The Buda meeting couldn't have been any better and that was down to Philip's vision and hard work.  Cheers Philip.

I will let the Captains have the first say concerning the results.  All that I would say is that the outcome was far more competitive than the Ryder Cup.  

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2006, 06:34:07 PM »
I am sure others took a boat load of Hoylake.  The day I was there the light was terrible so I didn't bother with the camera.

Located on the 2nd tee.


The chip to the very difficult 2nd.  A hard legger right which measures about 440 yards into the prevailing wind.


The lovely 3rd from the tee.  Probably the narrowest fairway on the course.  


After the constrained feeling of the 3rd the player walks through a gap in the dunes to discover the 4th tee.  The serpentine cops strikes me as a tribute to Hoylake.  It looks odd from the tee, but works well at ground level.  It is a shame the club continued this cops idea with mounding between 7th and 14th.  Totally unnecessary handiwork which IMO lessens the effect of some well placed bunkers.  Perhaps somebody will post pix of the offending lumps.


The 2nd shot of the 4th.  This photo demonstrates some of the odd variances in bunker styling at Wallasey.  


Looking back to the tee.


The approach to the 4th.


The 4th green from the 5th tee.  This photo shows the cool ridge which is right of the flag for the approach (beyond the flag in this pic).  The photo also highlites the the differences between these greenside bunkers and the fairways bunkers referenced in the earlier photo.    


One of the advantages Wallasey has over Hoylake is more dramatic shots due to elevation change.  The short 5th is a mild example.


The 5th taken from the 6th tee.  The massive dune range which contains at least parts of Wallasey's best holes is in the background.


Craig Disher escaping nicely from bunker on the 7th.  The bunkering is generally not as severe as it may appear on the photos.  They are deep enough to cause concern, but so much as to avoid at all costs.  


The all-world 11th.


One of the great features of Wallasey are it's many plateau greens.  The 11th is perhaps the best of the lot.  The green is long and narrow, sloping back to front and at an odd angle to the fairway.  It is easy to spin an approach off the green and back into the greenside bunkers.


The short 12th.  The background shows just how urban Wallasey is!


The approach to the par 5 13th.  


This angle reveals the hidden bunker.


The approach to the 15th.  Another plateau green.  The pic also shows the bizarre difference of bunker design.


A closer look at one of the bigger bunkers on the course and plateau green.


IMO the best short hole at Wallasey - the 16th.  


Tee shot at #17.  Another good hole with the green tucked hard right into a cutaway dune.


An oustanding drive leaves this approach to #17.


The haphazard 18th.  A dune essentially breaks the fairway about 125 yards from the green.  There is an alley to the left for the brave.


The 18th green from atop the dune mentioned with the previous photo.  The church serves as the target for the well placed drive out to the right.  For many this approach is blind.  


I spose comparing Hoylake and Wallasey is inevitable.   Wallasey wins the variety of holes contest hands down.  This is due to a large dune area which is used very well.  Wallasey also wins the routing battle.  Not that Hoylake's routing is poor, it isn't, but Wallasey goes from the dunes to the sea to the flat to the dunes to the flat to the dunes to the sea and finishes in the dunes.  It also has two loops of nine.  The routing is unquestionably great.  Hoylake wins the battle of flat holes hands down.  This may sound quite strange as I think the holes near the estuary are the cream of the course.  However, as something like half the course can be described as fairly flat it is no mean feat to create interest and challenge as many courses with similar terrain fail to do.  Hoylake also has the  distinct advantage of superior turf quality which is no small matter.  I think the best of Wallasey is better than the best of Hoylake, but the reverse is also true.  The worst of Wallasey is worse than the worst of Hoylake.  Curiously, neither course scores very highly on short par 4s.  None are really reachable even for fairly good players unless there are very extreme weather conditions.  I would be interested to hear opinions from others on this subject.  For those that care it is clear that Hoylake has a club pedigree which Wallasey or in fact few clubs can match.  Finally, for those that care, Wallasey is about half the price of Hoylake.  In the end though, I don't think there is much between the two courses, but I am sure to be in the minority on this.  This is no great surprise.  

Ciao

Sean
« Last Edit: October 05, 2006, 02:35:01 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2006, 08:49:50 PM »
Sean,  

Thanks for the great pix.  Links golf is the best and these photos show 18 of the reasons why.  I wonder though, was Hoylake fully recovered and just as green?  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2006, 02:23:38 AM »


First Buda Cup, what a time it was ;D

Thank you Philip, Mark, Sean & Rich for your efforts in organising a superb 3 days.  

Great summary Sean, I think as ever people should remember that the camera flattens everything. That tee shot at 4 puts you in mind of the Jump at Roses Point, and some of the hits upto the greens were as severe as I've encountered.  A great fun course, but Hoylake exceeded all expectations.  And yes the turf has fully recovered.

Sigh...back to work.
Let's make GCA grate again!

ForkaB

Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2006, 03:12:06 AM »
As the losing team captain, I am honoured to report that the final socre was:

USA 9
GBIMSA (Great Britain, Ireland, Michigan and South Africa) 12

Regardless of the outcome, this was one of the greatest Buda Cup's ever (and there hasn't been any close to being a not very good one).

Superb venues--Wallasey was the sort of place Michael Murphy and Shivas Irons would have loved and Hoylake played its role as the grandee extremely well.  And yes, Hoylake looks as any great links should look in October after a hot summer--green, largely healed, and preparing itself for the next Spring.  What a magnificent golf course!

Superb People--this should be #1, but we are on GCA and have to pay our respect to the courses first.  I saw many old firends and met a lot of new ones, and they were all 10's on the Doak scale, in their own ways, which is how it should be.  I fully include in this the Hoylake brigade who played with us, wined and dined with us, and gave us their knowledge as well as their friendship.

Superb Ran--I can see now why Ran is our most beloved.  I tried to injure him twice, first by fliiping his ball back to him with the back of my putter and beaning him right between the eyes (the CLAW (tm) is deadly in many ways....), and then yesterday at Wallasey by playing the par 3 16th as a severe dogleg left par 4 and landing on the 17th tee as Ran was about to drive (my lie on the tee was superb.....).  And still, he showed friendship and courtesy to me (and all of us) as only a lover of golf and a Southern Gentleman could.

More, I'm sure to follow--even if only in riposte.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2006, 03:14:24 AM by Rich Goodale »

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2006, 06:24:13 AM »
Obviously as the victorious skipper I come to the site this morning with a woolly head and blurred vision - but perfect recall!

I am thrilled that people enjoyed the event as much as I did. I knew Hoylake was a good course and great club and I am glad that fellow GCAers were able to savour it too. I think 16 golfers was a good number, and the overall slightly moving number of around 20 worked well.

Wallasey too was a very pleasant surprise - it deserves a lot more than the almost zero press it gets. Anybody playing Hoylake should play Wallasey - and the two are only 10 minutes apart (if you don't get lost!)

I suppose the Buda priorities are fellowship, GCA and golf, in roughly that order. I think the event scored well on all counts - and we should not ignore the golf. Most of the matches were pretty competitive, many went to the last hole and it was only in the last 15 minutes that victory was secured for the righteous.

I took some pictures which I will post in due course - there was some wonderful light on Monday afternoon - but I think you can expect Michael Whitaker to post a few (possibly more social) when he returns stateside. We all look forward also to Ran posting a review of the course, once he has solved the conundrum of which is the first hole!

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2006, 06:00:15 PM »
I had the great opportunity of witnessing the really crucial play as an onlooker.  Never have I wished less to take my clubs out of their bag.  When you hear of Tiger being 24-under par, think of these men, battling elements against which Tiger never contended....  'I know, I said my handicap is 8, but that is in the USA.  Here it would be 16.'  No, I saw it at Painswick, and I saw it at Hoylake and Wallasey, it only needs an interesting course to bring the best of sporting spirit out of a group of people who have spent a fortune travelling the world to get here.  I know why I contribute to this site.  This is a fabulous bunch of guys.  If only it embraced an equal number of ladies.  Let's make that our aim - to interest an equal number of ladies in golf course architecture.  They play courses designed by men for men.  Do they need to put up with being third best?

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2006, 06:16:02 PM »
I have an apology to make.  I remembered the 2006 Golf World rankings totally wrong.  Wallasey did not even make the top 200, let alone th top 100.  Delamere Forest made it imto 159th place.  The Addington has made it imto the top 100 at 95th.  I think I'm right in saying that Beau Dessert is still off the radar.  

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2006, 07:03:15 PM »
Gentlemen,
we are all suitably agog with starry-eyed glee at these delightful reminiscences. However, in the immortal words of our beloved Shivas, "WHERE'S THE ASS-PICS?"

yours anticipatingly,
FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2006, 07:07:00 PM »
I am so sad I missed this great event. I hope we are able to play on seaside  courses like this again next year. Cheers Tiger

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2006, 11:32:51 PM »
Sean All sound great to me but reverse TOC. I do like your Charlie does not surf.

ForkaB

Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2006, 04:17:11 AM »
Tiger

We missed you.  Hope all is well.

Sean

Good listing of choices.  I would say if we do Littlestone again(which I would heartily endorse!) , pair it with Rye (if possible).  Deal is just a Channel Tunnel too far away to be an appropriate pairing.  Of course, Deal/Sandwich sounds good too!

Some other thoughts:

--Ireland (?!)
--Dornoch again (yawn......)
--Long Island (NGLA, Shinny, Sebby, etc.....) ;)

Mark

Amongst your stunning portfolio of photographs from day 1 at Hoylake, you do have some great arse pics.  Show them to Martin before he melts in the Cyprecene (?) sun.

Finally

If I haven't said it already, muchos kudos to Philip for arranging this.  He has raised the bar significantly for future events, and I say that knowing that GCAers will be less intimidated than challenged!

Rhic

ForkaB

Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2006, 04:53:21 AM »
Just a little footnore/question.  In Sean's great pics of Wallasey he rightly notes that Dr. Frank devised his "Stableford" system on the 2nd tee!  What sort of score must he have had on the first to make such an inspired creation? :o

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2006, 05:06:19 AM »
Sean,

Other options would surely include something around Prestwick, Aberdeen and Cruden Bay (more problematic travel, I guess), around Dundee (Carnoustie, Panmure, Monifeith, Downfield), Burnham & Berrow, Saunton.  So many options in the UK and that's without considering Ireland.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2006, 05:30:01 AM »
I have no means of posting pics at the minute, but I gave copies of them on CD to Mike Whittaker and Ran, so they will see the light of day at some point.  I also gave them pics of Delamere in case the weather was foul when they were there.  

It's not in my gift - I'm not a member - but you might like to consider Alwoodley for next year, the club's centenary and, impirtantly, the course's centenary, the very first MacKenzie course, and pretty intact it is, too.  You could pair it with Moortown, MacKenzie's second course, or you could pair it with Ganton - now there's a thought!

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2006, 05:31:56 AM »
Thank you for kind words Rich.

I actually think there would be a lot of interest in playing a nice portfolio of heathland courses. You could have a core for the Buda event, and then play any portfolio of others outside of the event.

Being a glutton for punishment, I would be happy sometime to organise an event based around Huntercombe, with some heathland permutation appended to it. I am sure we could fix a really great couple of days.

 I mention Huntercombe not so much because I am a member, and not because it is heathland ( it is not) but because it does occupy an illustrious place in GCA history, Golf's Most Beloved .... is very keen to see the course and I have no doubt we could get members pretty involved and have a lot of fun.

It is a completely different scale proposition to Hoylake - not in any way grand - but would be very intimate and friendly. One to put on the long list....

Eric Franzen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2006, 08:34:20 AM »
Sounds like you guys had a great time!

A quick question for the locals...
Just found out that I might be in Liverpool at the end of January. Should I plan to bring my clubs (...and a really thick windstopper)? As a Swede, I am quite used to playing in cold temperatures and immediately thought of this as a good opportunity to take a couple of extra days there and go for winter greenfee's at Hoylake and Lytham.



« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 08:45:28 AM by Eric Franzen »

RT

Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2006, 08:55:32 AM »
Marks got a good suggestion for Leeds area.  Ganton reachable by train from Leeds too.

ForkaB

Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2006, 09:03:20 AM »
I'm liking the idea of Yorkshire, too.  With the Alwoodley centenary next year and both Mark and Nick Leefe being such active and positive contributors to this years's event and more than a few of us having connections to Ganton, this could be great.

Keep the thoughts coming.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2006, 10:04:32 AM »
Eric,  You should certainly bring the clubs.  Links courses are almost as good in winter as in high summer.  I don't know if any of them does a cheaper winter green fee, so at one round a day they are a bit expensive.  I can remember playing Wallasey some years ago in shirt sleeves on 1st February and it was terrific.

JohnV

Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2006, 11:33:17 AM »
Just a little footnore/question.  In Sean's great pics of Wallasey he rightly notes that Dr. Frank devised his "Stableford" system on the 2nd tee!  What sort of score must he have had on the first to make such an inspired creation? :o

He probably lost a ball on #1 and didn't want to go back to the tee. ;)

T.J. Sturges

Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2006, 01:18:14 PM »
To Philip:

Thanks again for all your work to put this thing together.  It was great fun.

Would you be kind enough to put up a post with all the participants listed by team?  It would be helpful for we as participants in our following up with our new friendships.

To Rich:

I love your idea of a Buda Cup on Long Island.  Four ball at Sebonack, Foursomes at NGLA, and the Singles at Shinnecock.  Wouldn't that be fun!

Thanks again guys,

Ted

Eric Franzen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2006, 02:44:03 PM »
Mark,

Thanks for information.

I will then extend my stay with day or two. Saw that Lytham do winter greenfee's for 75 pounds per round.


T.J. Sturges

Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2006, 03:23:02 PM »
Ran, Ward and I went to Delamere Forest after our lunch at Wallasey.  Did others play there the next morning?  

What did you all think of that course?

I loved it!

TS

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:BUDA CUP Results and Other Musings
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2006, 03:30:02 PM »
I played Ganton this summer and made a few friends there. Naturally I have not followed up like I should. However it is not near anywhere nor is Woodhall Spa. Both are not just good but great courses. I think the key to getting the yanks over is a well known links course as a headquarters course. I know Painswick worked well but I am stll amazed it did so.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 03:31:19 PM by Tiger_Bernhardt »