Pine Valley (old footage) on TV Wednesday night

[Pete Stankevich]

In honor of Byron Nelson, the Golf Channel is re-broadcasting the old Shell's Wonderful World of Golf episode of Byron Nelson vs. Gene Littler at Pine Valley.  It's listed under Ultimate Matches at 10:30pm eastern time.  If you've never seen the episode before, it's a great look at PV with a lot less trees.  For those that saw the course at the Crump Cup Sunday for the first time, this footage (circa 1962) will be a real eye-opener.

[John_Conley]

Thanks for telling me.  I just set the DVR.

[David_Tepper]

Last night (Tuesday), the Golf Channel ran a best-ball match of Palmer & Player vs. Ken Venturi & Byron Nelson. It was filmed at Pebble Beach sometime in the 1960's. All the golfers were miked on the course and they all commented on what was going on from time to time.

Nelson was in his 50's at that time, but was still swinging the club nicely. Nelson & Venturi won the match 4&2!

I don't know if it will be repeated this week, but it is worth keeping an eye out for.

[A.G._Crockett]

Keep in mind as you watch the Shell segment from PV that Gene Littler had won the U.S. Open in 1961, won twice on tour in 1962, and was a Ryder Cupper in 1963, while Nelson had been off the Tour and largely out of competitive golf for over 15 years by then.

I'll let you guess who wins the match...

[Tim Taylor]

Last night's Shell's Wonderful World featuring Byron Nelson and Gerry Dewitt at The Hague was cool. What an interesting course. I thought the Netherlands was all flat

Tim

[Coral_Ridge]

Maybe this is well known, but where did Byron Nelson play golf for fun while spending most of his time at his ranch in Roanoke?  His home course.

[RE Blanks]

bump.  on right now

[John_Conley]

I'm making a DVD for someone from the board and can do more if anyone wants one.  It is saving to my DVR and I can copy to a DVD.

[RE Blanks]

Littler +6 after 5 holes

[Pat Howard]

I'm 'Google Earthing' my own round at Pine Valley while I watch the Littler v. Nelson match. I never would have half-topped it on 12 like Littler just did!  

Technology is amazing, this is as close to a real round on PVGC as I may come.

[Adam Clayman]

This too was my first look at PV. I was struck by how other courses I have played have tried to emulate the look. For instance; I'd first heard that the Pine Barrens course was intended to emulate PV, but until now, I could only speculate in which ways. One of the approach looks reminded me of some of the looks @ Fazio's Preserve near Carmel.
Seeing the Devils Hole and that slope down into it sure was radical. Why I'd bet someone would have to travel far and wide, probably to a Jim Engh course, to see anything that pushes the envelope that far.

Loved the gallery. Those two babes sucking suds behind the 8th green was too avant garde. The fashions were as classic as the mow lines.

P.s What parts did HWW write? Hole descriptions?

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Conley,

I'd appreciate it if you could make one for me.

Thanks

[Jordan Wall]

I'm 'Google Earthing' my own round at Pine Valley while I watch the Littler v. Nelson match. I never would have half-topped it on 12 like Littler just did!  

Technology is amazing, this is as close to a real round on PVGC as I may come.

Someday Pat, someday...

What cool footage huh!
I was going crazy (in my brain) when Littler hit the pin with a putt on 15 and no penalty was assessed.
I was in shock to see a Driver-3.wood-4.iron being hit into a par five.
Drvier-8.iron for a drive-&-pitch hole...

Just crazy.  Very cool though, I must admit.  I do not know if I realized technology had improved THIS much.  Today I could get maybe 50 yards from a 600 yard hole, and they got 170 yards away
 

[John_Conley]

John Conley,

I'd appreciate it if you could make one for me.

Thanks

Pat, PM me your addy.  No problemo.

[John_Conley]

 I do not know if I realized technology had improved THIS much.  Today I could get maybe 50 yards from a 600 yard hole, and they got 170 yards away

Jordan, I haven't gained much since 1990 when I played a TaylorMade Tour Burner Plus 9.5 loft with a hard ball, but I was an early adapter as far as the ball goes.  The decade prior?  Wow, what a difference that made.

It was harder to find good balls and there was no big benefit with old, dense persimmon or laminate heads.  Someone posted it on here once, but it is worth repeating.  Lou Graham won the U.S. Open at Medinah in 1975.  When asked about distances and equipment he said something like he averaged about 240 with a good drive, "but you'd have one mishit per 9 that didn't go anywhere."

He was never a long hitter, but there isn't anyone joining the Tour today that doesn't carry it 290 with a good hit.  And when it isn't a good hit?  Guys get 289 out of it now where it used to be a severe penalty.

7,000 in 1975 was a long track if irrigated.  (The biggest change is in carry distances as good players regularly got 250 carry plus 25 yards of roll on a dry fairway.)  A bunch of Driver-4 iron.

Today?  7,400 is reduced to a bunch of Driver-8i when the teeshot goes 290 and the jacked iron (lofts are quite a bit stronger now) with a hard ball carries 160.  

Geiberger somehow shot 59 on a course that was very long.  Nothing plays long for Tour players anymore.

[AndrewB]

Seeing the Devils Hole and that slope down into it sure was radical. Why I'd bet someone would have to travel far and wide, probably to a Jim Engh course, to see anything that pushes the envelope that far.

This was the difference that most stood out to me between this footage and what I saw at the Crump Cup.  The green used to extend around the bunker and the severe slope to the left was part of the green.  Now there are several feet of rough between the bunker and the green and the green doesn't wrap around the bunker at all.  The bunker looks less in play now even though it's in the same spot.

The other thing was seeing the lack of trees to the left of the 12th, which has been discussed a lot on the Crump Cup thread.  The camera angle wasn't that great, but you could get a feel for how much more the bunkers on the left come into play.

[Mike_Sweeney]

I was in shock to see a Driver-3.wood-4.iron being hit into a par five.
Today I could get maybe 50 yards from a 600 yard hole, and they got 170 yards away
 

Jordan,

I think you are talking about 15, which climbs uphill from the tee accross the lake. Thus, 50 yards short would be a good poke today, and probably you don't want to leave it there as it gets very narrow.





What surprised me is how much the course does look the same, especially the trees. What year was that?

Oh yea, that rough was brutal.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

How about the yardage on some iron shots? 6 iron for 140y and 3 iron for 180y!!!

[rboyce]

I think Littler lost it on the first tee when his response to Sarazen's question about the course was that it was, "a little too tough for me." Sarazen rejected that response and quickly turned to Nelson who started talking about how great the course was.

match over

[Andy Scanlon]

I'm making a DVD for someone from the board and can do more if anyone wants one.  It is saving to my DVR and I can copy to a DVD.

John:

I'd like one as well.  I've sent you a pm.

Thanks,
Andy

[Dan Boerger]

50 yards from the green in 2 on 15? I wonder how many of the Crump Cup players were able to do that? That hole really narrows on your second shot. Left is dead and right is no picnic (but better than left). a full 8 or 9 iron in would be your most prudent chance for a birdie, IMO. - Dan

[Jim Franklin]

I was surprised at how much the trees have really grown in over the years. They may be in the same places, but I think they certainly need a trim. I was only able to watch #10-#14 and would love to see it again. When I saw Littler at +8 through 13, I was pretty happy with my 76 a few weeks ago.

[JeffTodd]

That was a great program! Pete Stankevich, thanks for the heads up. I think I was struck be several things (other than the technology issues):

-The heavy, penal rough was much more a factor than the rough today. I've been to PV several times, both as a spectator and to play the course, and I've never seen rough that even approached that length. Was that a gradual change, or can we point to a specific time when they changed the way they maintained the course?

-The green speeds were much slower than I expected. This was most evident on #5 when both Littler and Nelson were putting toward the front of the green, and both struck the ball quite solidly in order to get it to the hole. I think those same putts today would have rolled off the front of the green. The flag location for their match was similar to the location at the Crump last Sunday, and that putt required the most gentle tap in order to get it close. Naturally I expected slower greens, but I didn't expect them to be as slow as they seemed to be during their match.

-I really liked #10 much better back then (not that it is a dog now!). The "Devil's Hole" was much more integrated with the green in the old footage and it looked as if a ball could easily roll off the green and into the bunker. Speaking of which, was it really known as the "Devil's Hole" back then during those kinder, gentler times, or was that a sanitized version for television?

-The hazards are much more groomed today. Quick glimpses of the waste area in front of #6 fairway, as well as Hell's Half Acre, showed how unkempt they were back then.

-#12, wow. Count me among those who think of #12 as the most pedestrian of the eighteen at PVGC. In defense of #12, last night's program demonstrated how much technology has impacted that hole. Today I think it is a drive and a simple pitch, but from farther back in the fairway that shot is anything but simple. I wished we were given a longer look at the left side, but surely we saw enough to get a feel for the encroachment of the trees. I'm with the chain saw advocates, give that hole some TLC and return it to its rightful condition.

-And yes Jordan, #15 is a LONG 600+ yards. In fact, of all the club selections, driver-3 wood-4 iron on #15 was probably the least surprising.

[JESII]

Jordan,

With a slight wind helping on the first day I hit a good drive, a really good four iron and a nine iron that landed alomst to the middle of the green before trickling back to the front apron.

Day #2 into a stiff wind I hit a good drive, a great three iron and a great 4 iron to the back center of the green. I would say the drive was a 275 drive. The three iron a 220 shot and the 4 iron a 205 shot. That adds up to 700 yards effective yardage. It's a long damn hole.

[mike_malone]

 The fashions! The guys in those little hats were priceless. One guy had to be Tony Soprano's dad with his yellow shirt and his brown socks.

   Also, the ladies were standing by the greens smoking away.