[Matt_Ward]

It's interesting when I travel throughout the USA because I get to see a broad range of courses from different locales in different settings and in different categories (private, resort, daily fee, taxpayer-owned layouts, etc, etc).

I have to say that the movement being made in Colorado is indeed impressive from the standpoint of its success of golf course development in the broad category areas I just mentioned. A number of states have shown success in one area or the other but few, if any, can match -- let alone surpass -- what the Centennial State has in its current roster and what is planned to happen immediately down the pike.

Yes, people have spent a good bit of time discussing the nature of Ballyneal -- myself included. You also have the much anticipated arrival of Colorado GC by C&C and the considerable fanfare attached to the new Norman layout (Cornerstone) opening up sometime next year. Nicklaus will also have a new public layout opening in the Trinidad area as well.

I'm also not going into full depth on the private side with places like Castle Pines, Pradera, Cherry Hills and a host of others.

In addition, the public side of the ledger in the state is very good -- in fact -- one can argue it's the deepest listing of
courses that people can access without taking out a second mortgage to play them -- and many of them have got some serious architectural heft. All of the game's major architects are involved in some form or the other in the state and because of the desire to live there the amount of available money for development is clearly present. It also helps that Colorado is second only to Massachusetts in the percentage of people with higher education degrees and the desire to live there is still arousing interest.

Among the top tier public include:

Lakota Canyon Ranch & Redlands Mesa by Jim Engh
Norman's Red Sky Ranch layout in Wolcott
Devil's Thumb & Antler Creek by Rick Phelps
Riverdale Dunes by Pete Dye w assist by T Doak
Bear Dance in Larkspur
Murphy's Creek in Aurora
Haymaker in Steamboat Springs by Keith Foster
Raven Club at Three Peaks in Silverthorne
Highland Meadows in Ft. Collins by Art Schaupeter

On the resort side you have a wide range of facilities
headlined with The Broadmoor. This doesn't include a wide range of facilities that dot the mountain area -- both east and west slopes.

There are a few states with greater sheer volume of courses -- most notably the assembly line of places called Florida (minus the very, very small handful of places worth noting). But I don't see any state that has the resources ($$ most notably), land and architectural diversity that Colorado provides.

There are also other states which excel in one category (private) but really have a very thin top line for public facilities when measured against their private stock (NY & Pennsy) come quickly to mind.

The only other state, I believe, that has the potential to rival Colorado is the movement afoot you see in the Tar Heel State. The topography is quite varied and the quality of golf in the different categories is indeed impressive.

I'm sure there will be plenty of disagreements -- what would life be without them  .

Looking forward to hearing what people say.
 

[Mike_Sweeney]

http://www.coloradoavidgolfer.com/colorado_avid_golfer_magazine_ric_buckton.asp

I have only skied, not golfed in Colorado so I can't really comment. I have to say those pics of Colorado GC, Ballyneal and this article make me think you are onto something.

[Jay Flemma]

Two years in a row, I have taken a week vacation out there.  One of these years I'll golf ski same day!  ...Kinda like when I played Black mesa in early March!  I think my toes finally thawed out!

[Adam Clayman]

Matt, Where is Rio Grande in South Fork? It wasn't bad at all. There was some question about the climb to the 17th tee, even with the added cost to dynamite the rock to make the hole. However, the resulting home hole vista is pretty impressive. And thats from a guy who loathes vistas for vistas sake. The front nine played along and over the Rio Grande's head waters at grade. Pretty and nice. Most of the back nine plays out and back one of those massive mountainside isolated finger ravines before the climb to the penultimate.

[RJ_Daley]

Matt, I can't speak from first hand experience because I have very limitted personal exposure to CO.  But, from the new courses and commentary coming from them, you can't deny the action is certainly there in CO.  But, also going strictly by the commentary and new offerings, Oregon can't be far behind CO, I wouldn't think.  It also has a diversity of land character to offer a wide range of styles and tastes.

[Brad Swanson]

When does water (and the general lack thereof) start to impact Colorado golf course development?  The 5 years I lived in Denver was the driest 5 year stretch in history, and the golf course problems that arose from the drought were quite severe (closures, EXTREME firm and fast conditions).

Cheers,
Brad

[Jim Franklin]

I agree with Matt and cannot wait to get back out to Colorado and try some of the newer places. Fossil Trace is a city owned course that gives the folks a decent bang for their buck too. The front nine is average, but the back nine is pretty interesting.

Ballyneal could be the best new course I have played in a long time. I can't wait to see what C&C have done with Colorado GC.

[Kirk Gill]

-per capita hightest educated state, but you would never know it
-front range public golf is the best deal going!
-melanoma is epidemic there, fair-skinned thing thrice
-ball go far, far, faaaar!
-ball go straight, very straight
-good par 5's are hard to design that truly play well.   They may be really intereting in design, but getting them to play that way for a number of levels of players is nearly impossible
-it is pretty, if you're into mountains.  If you like water? Forget it.
-water rights are a legal morass in Colorado, just wait!
-it is isolated (a late 20th and 21st century American fascination - and long a fascination with misfits - lone cowboys, now motorcyclists, gun nuts, hunters, woodsmen - some strange & dangerous people about, but lots of Brooklyn ain't so sweet either...)
-travel is long by car or by plane.  DIA is really nowhere.
-I haven't been back in a few years and have little desire to do so, but pretty soon, I guess

1. A good education does not prevent someone from being a moron.

2. There ARE a lot of great places to play out here in the public realm. However, I haven't really traveled around the country enough to know how it is elsewhere.

3. I am perhaps the whitest person on the planet, albinos aside. I am aggressively white. In fact, I'm not a member of the white race. I am pink. And yes, the sun can be brutal. Thank whatever dieties might be listening for the blessings of sunscreen !

4. I wish my ball went faaaaaarther.

5. I wish my ball went straighter.

6. Agreed on the par 5's, although is that phenonemon strictly a high-altitude one? What it does is make most par 5's, even long ones, reachable for the long player, which pretty much works for me. But it's an interesting design dilemma, which architects seem to tackle in different ways.

7. Colorado is only half mountainous. See Ballyneal. Also, see lots and lots of flat, flat, flat land. You're right on the water thing, though. High desert. Still, don't care much for water on golf courses anyway.

8. One of the issues in the current gubenatorial campaign is "keeping Colorado water in Colorado." I'm sure California will go along with that.

9. It's not as isolated as it used to be. It seems as if a decent percentage of California has moved here. Thus, we SHOULD be able to keep all that water, since the same people are using it anyway. Personally, I am perhaps more strange than dangerous, but I can't speak for everyone.

10. Travel IS long. The state is large (for example, it is larger than England, Scotland and Wales put together). The distances between the courses Matt mentions are pretty long.

11. Redanman, if you ever come out to this neck of the woods again, you're welcome to dinner and a beverage of your choice at my house.

[Matt_Ward]

The only real aspect that people can throw forward to pull Colorado down a bit is that you have no ocean fronting the state. Minus that -- I see the state as the place to be.

Adam:

I didn't mention Rio Grande because I have not played it thus far -- it's on the agenda when I visit the new Nicklaus layout in Trinidad next year. One particular course that is really special is Grandote Peaks GC in La Veta. The Weiskopf / Moorish design has had its ups and downs over the years but seems to be recoverying from the recent lean years in terms of turf quality. Be interested if anyone has the most updated info on the course.

[PThomas]

Colorado sure does have a lot going for it Matt

got to play Ballyneal and Fossil Trace (a pretty decent course on a terribly difficult site) recently, and played the Raven at Three Peaks some years ago

pls share your thoughts on developments in North Carolina

[Kirk Gill]

http://www.coloradoavidgolfer.com/colorado_avid_golfer_magazine_ric_buckton.asp

Ric Buckton is a class individual.

I am curious what folks have heard about Ravenna. I know that the area where they're building it is really beautiful, but hilly. Has anyone had a look at the site?

And thanks, redanman, I do wear as much clothing as possible. It's good for me, and the world at large isn't complaining either.

[cary lichtenstein]

Bette and I love Colorado , perhaps our favorite

[Jim Franklin]

Cary-

We know, we know, Lakota Canyon is top 10 in the country  .

[Matt_Ward]

Paul T:

I can start another thread on the happenings within the Tar Heel State shortly. The development of different golf options is also doing quite well. Likely those who live in the state can weigh in as they see fit.

Suffice to say Colorado is perfectly positioned to still encourage golf growth in all the different categories. No doubt the water issue is still critical but much less so than in other places in the West.

For those who are budget conscious I urge the Colorado option because unlike Vegas and Scottsdale which dig deep into one's wallet -- the public golf side in the Centennial State does give some significant relief and solid golf options.

[Tim Pitner]

I consider myself fortunate to live in Colorado and the availability of good public golf is one of the reasons (along with the weather--really quite mild in Denver--being able to watch Big 10 football at 10:00 am, etc.).  I agree with Matt that, between the high country and the Front Range, there are lots of good, and a few very good to great courses.  

But, there are a few problems as well (in no particular order):  (1) there are a glut of courses in some areas in the mountains; witness all the golf courses you see from I-70 between Vail and Eagle--IMHO, the courses shouldn't overwhelm the natural, mountain environment; (2) while there are very good courses in the Front Range, there's only so much you can do with treeless, mostly flat land--a lot of these courses look too similar; (3) the rocky soil isn't ideal for golf; other than someplace like Ballyneal, you don't find much land that screams golf; and (4) there is a dearth of classic courses--after Cherry Hills, Denver CC and Broadmoor East (maybe), what else is there?

It'll be interesting to see the reactions to Colorado Golf Club.  As a C&C course, I expect favorable reviews.  When I was out there though, I had just returned from Bandon and couldn't help but think that Bandon Trails was a much more interesting looking course than CGC.  It's on a nice piece of land south of Denver, but it's not especially striking.  It may be a fantastic course, but, from what I saw, it had very little wow factor.  

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

Just a thought -- might be advisable to wait until CGC actually opens before people start spinning about how it actually might be ?

I saw the land from a distance with Doug Wright back in mid-August and frankly I have no idea on what the course will be like until it actually opens and personal reviews can be made.

In regards to the golf dimensions -- there are plenty of private clubs of high caliber in Colorado. You didn't mention Pradera, there's also Flying Horse outside of Colorado Springs nicely done by Weiskopf. I also mentioned the much anticipated arrival of Cornerstone by Greg Norman in Telluride.
You say there's a dearth of classic courses but c'mon how could there be much more given the fact of when golf actually came to the state in the first place?

Tim, the point of the thread is 21st century golf state and from my many visits there I have to say the state is well-positioned and well-financed to add even more quality layouts.

I mean the list goes on and on and on and on.

Colorado also has all the key designers present and each of the major categories (taxpayer-owned, resort, CCFAD, private and resort) you can name top flight candidates that can easily compete at the highest of levels.

[Tim Pitner]

Matt,

I'm not a professional critic so I don't have to be as careful as you regarding what I say.  I too don't know what Colorado Golf Club will be like.  My only point (laced with several caveats) is that it doesn't hit you over the head with its aesthetic appeal.  I don't count that as much of a strike against it, but someone going to Colorado to play a much-anticipated course might.  

Fair point about the lack of classic courses here--it's a pretty young state.  But, it is a drawback of golf in Colorado.  

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

I don't see the "drawback" you mentioned when you consider the caliber of golf -- in the varied categories that I mentioned. Colorado is in the forefront when other states are lucky to have momentum in one two areas at best.

[Tim Pitner]

Matt,

I'm not sure what we're fighting about.  I don't disagree that Colorado golf has a lot going for it.  But, just as the East coast probably has a shortage of good, affordable public golf courses, Colorado has a shortage of classic courses.  It's one category in which Colorado doesn't do well.  IMO, that constitutes a lack of diversity that isn't a good thing.  I'm certainly not saying that Colorado golf sucks because of it.  

[Kirk Gill]

Tim - while CGC may not end up having the dramatic appeal of BT, the word I've heard so far is that it is a difficult course, a fun course, and not lacking in natural beauty. Here's a pic (I know, I've posted it before, but......):



As to the classic course factor, or lack thereof, out here, that's something that will never change. Thus the "21st century golf state." The 19th and 20th centuries are already spoken for, though........

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

The original emphasis in golf development in the state favored the mountain areas as a summer retreat for facilities looking to reap extra $$ from potential new members / travelers, etc, etc.

The development is now spreading further away -- see the recent interest in the wider Fort Collins area as one example. You also have courses in remote areas -- clearly Ballyneal -- but you also have solid public taxpayer-owned layouts off the beaten trail with the likes of Devil's Thumb in Delta.

Classic golf is mainly a northeast quadrant aspect -- ditto the Chicago area too -- the aspect that fascinates me about Colorado is the continued pace and the rising of the bar in terms of courses with clear statements on architectural merits -- and these courses cover the wisest of spans.

[Adam_Messix]

Colorado Golf Club opened last Saturday.

Kirk--

Is your picture the 6th at CGC?  There's a really cool hump on the right side of the hole that could potentially affect play.  It's difficult to tell from where the angle of your picture was taken from.


Someone commented on the soil conditions, it appeared as if the soil at CGC was very conducive to golf.  

[Kirk Gill]

Yes, Adam, that is the sixth hole. I have some pics taken during the construction process that really show off that hill short and right of the green. How did you play the hole?

You're correct, in the picture posted above the hill is just to the right of the clump of trees, and the tee was directly to the right of where I was standing when that picture was taken.

As to the soil, there's a lot of hard clay along the front range, but in that area the soil has a sandy quality, and certainly seems conducive to golf.......

[Adam Clayman]

When I visited during construction I specifically asked about the land and the soil.

Mr. Crenshaw was coy enough to answer in the affirmative, that there was good golf ground out there. On the soil side, I did ask, since it was raining. Upon my leaving I heard one of the crew say something to effect of how "greasy" some of the spots were. Since coming from New Mexico, I knew exactly what he was speaking of. There's a certain type of greasiness that is unique to the region. It runs sporadicly looking just like the sandier spots, but feels like butter under foot. Slipping on ones arse is not only possible, if uninitiated, it's probable.

[Matt_Ward]

I understand that a few courses are being contemplated for the extreme southeast portion of the state.

If anyone has any info they can share I would be most appreciative.

Thanks ...

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