[David Stamm]

Just in case anybody didn't know this, Hunter towards the end of his life did a complete about-face in his political views.

[James Bennett]

Pure supposition here, but MacKenzie had already experienced the South African weather during his time in the army - Boer War, camoflague etc (sorry John Kavanaugh - I expect this is mis-spelt too).  

If you have been to Leeds, and to South Africa, I think you will understand why he considered THE WEST COAST of the USA.  Santa Cruz has pretty good weather.  These days, many of the people of Leeds spend a lot of time in the south of France, in Spain and in Tenerife.  MacKenzie was perhaps ahead of his time.  You certainly couldn't practice your golf in your slippers and pyjamas in Leeds!

I also find it interesting that he didn't seem to spend as much time in the NE of the USA.  Perhaps the weather didn't suit him - even in Leeds you can play golf just about all year round, albeit with difficulty in January.   I must check my MacKenzie book on his movements and work in NE USA.

James B

[Mark_Guiniven]

Tom,
Have you got that Joshua Crane article AM describes in chapter 1 of SoSA? I was thinking if it was like 1921 or something it would at least put Behr and AM together before AM started visiting America.

[Sean_Tully]

Well where do I start, some info mentioned in some of the prior posts is not entirely correct.

The work done at Claremont in 1925-26 was NOT done by Mackenzie it was done by someone else.

Mackenzie did not get to Claremont until 1928 to do any work there, so I think that what has been mentioned before this is most likely incorrect.

Mackenzie's timeframe in CA has been incorrect for some of his work at different periods of time most notably at Claremont and Cal Club.

Behr did not work with Whiting at O Club. He was brought in to inspect the plans and quality of work that Whiting had done after some damage to the course in 1925. They would later get together and design and build Caphuchino GC.

Sam Whiting is Welsh and was born in Malvern in 1870.
He worked at Criccieth GC in North Wales, Rotherham and District GC 1904-1912, and Ilkley in Yorkshire 1912-20.
He also won the Welsh Open in 1907.

Tully

[T_MacWood]

Hux
I believe the Crane articles were in 1926.

Sean
What date did MacKenzie first arive in the US?

When Whiting was hired by Berkeley CC in early 1921 he had been working at Ilkley - which is just outside Leeds - for the last 11 years. I believe at some point MacKenzie redesigned Ilkley.

Whatever the case regarding the exact nature of Behr's involvement at Olympic, MacKenzie was also at Olympic in 1926 and could have crossed paths with him.

[Chris_Clouser]

I would have to check the dates I have at home, but Mackenzie's first project in the States was the consultation he did at Melrose in Philadelphia with Maxwell in 1926.

I think there are a lot of things that led to him coming to America.  You can say what you want about the political climate, but I have a feeling the marital issues he was having and the opportunity to work in America where the market was much larger and free of competition with Harry Colt are the two things that really drove him to leave England.  No hard evidence to that end, but just my opinions from what I have read.  I think the writing about the economy and such was perhaps his opinion, but that was a secondary concern.

[JMorgan]

Here is a direct quote from Geoff S.'s Cypress Point book:

"In the fall of 1925, MacKenzie arrived in California to prepare plans to redesign the Claremont Country Club course, home club to his friend and well-known Scottish professional golfer Macdonald Smith.  It is believed that Smith was partially responsible for luring MacKenzie to California adn introducing him to several potential clients.  The Claremont project also led indirectly to a commission for a new course at the Meadow Club, and soon after, a trip to inspect the Cypress Point site 150 miles to the south."

After MacKenzie toured the CP property, he formed the partnership with CA resident Hunter, with whom obviously he was already friends.  

[BCrosby]

Tom -

Crane's first article was published in The Field in 1924. The picture of MacK and Behr at TOC was either '25 or '26. I think it was probably '26 because the Walker Cup was at TOC that year and the golf world had gathered there. I think that is where MacK first met Jones. Crane was there too which is where he and MacK met up as described in TS of SA.

Sean/all -

Repeating the question, when did MacK first come to California? He was in Australia in the fall of '26. I would guess the winter/spring of '26. No?

Bob

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I would have to check the dates I have at home, but Mackenzie's first project in the States was the consultation he did at Melrose in Philadelphia with Maxwell in 1926.

WRONG.

[Adam Clayman]

Surely the lure of a sparsely populated verdant California was the reason "why".

[T_MacWood]

This is from Bob Beck and Nick Leefe's info:

Jan. 20th – arrived NYC on SS Homeric on way to California (ST)

Jan. 28th – arrived San Francisco (ST)

Feb.11th - Meeting in SF on Meadow Club (ST)

Feb. – received Cypress Point commission (S-CP)

March – Reconstruct MPCC, Cypress Point viewing  (W, H)

March – to Meadow Club (D, H)

March - Early spring to Southern California, consulted on Redlands CC (S-CP)

April – played at Midwick CC on his way home (W)

May/June – Met with Maxwell, Melrose Park (DHS)

May 19th – Alwoodley: Match v Ilkley [16] (DHS, AL)

June 3rd – at Walker Cup, St. Andrews

June 8th Leeds at Alwoodley Committee Meeting.(AL)

June 16 Alwoodley: Remainder v West Riding Club Members[17] (AL)

Summer: redesigned the 8th and 13th greens at Pebble Beach (S-CP)

Cork – returned from America (DHS)

Lahinch (DHS)

Mid September: Alwoodley: M played in match with Yorkshire (AL)  (W)

Sept. 19 - Left on round the world trip on the SS Ontranto of the Orient Line (W H)

Oct. 25th – arrived Melbourne, Australia (DHS)

Nov. 11th   still in Australia, consulting, Royal Sydney (DHS, H)

Most of the early information is the result of Sean's (ST) excellent research. It appears Meadow C was his first project. The Melrose visit must have been April or May '26 (really a Maxwell project).

I'm not sure what the original source of that Behr-MacKenzie photo was...I don't recall seeing it in an old magazine. You are probably right about the occasion, '26 Walker Cup, although it could also be the British Open in '27 - MacKenzie attended both. The question still remains when and where they met.

[BCrosby]

Tom -

Great stuff. Thanks.

Who is AL and ST?

Bob

[T_MacWood]

AL – Nick Leefe, Alwoodley

DHS – Doak, Life & Times of Alister MacKenzie

H - Haddock -Golf Illustrated (English), notes from Jack Fleming & private papers

S-CP – Shackelford “MacKenzie at Cypress Point    

ST – Sean Tully, Meadow Club, unpublished letters

W – MacKenzie’s writings

[BCrosby]

Tom -

Again, thanks.

As noted, it's not clear when the MacK/Behr TOC picture was taken. The USGA dates it as 1925, but they aren't sure about that. I think it more likely that the photo is from '26 or maybe '27.

MacK and Behr must have known each other before '26, even if they hadn't met face to face. Among other possible connections, they got to know each other in the Crane fracas, starting about '24. Behr's "Permanent Architecture" (essentialy a series of essays responding to Crane) written around '24 implies that MacK was a friend. I wish, however, there was something more concrete out there.

Bob

[Tony Ristola]

Quote from Hux:
"I imagine he went there to design golf courses and stayed there because America came to represent everything he stood for politically and economically."

From The Spirit of St. Andrews, I got this feeling too.

I found his insight into politics, government, "the dole", as brilliant as his writings about golf and golf architecture. That was a real bonus, and I'm glad the stuff wasn't edited out.

[Sean_Tully]

In my research so far the connection for Mackenzie is pretty weak at Claremont for the timeframe given in AMCPC. They had part of the course closed for work in 1925 well before Mackenzie's visit and the work was overseen by a local golf pro. It is more than likely that the work was less not up to snuff and Mackenzie came in 1928 to make changes.

Regarding Macdonald Smith, he was floating around as a golf pro in the Bay area and was playing in a number of the majors that year, was oversees, and even got married. For a time people were worried about his welfare as he was not seen for a period of time. Yes, he had a long history with Claremont, but one needs to recall that Hunter was a member at Claremont before he got involved at Berkeley. It is most likely that Hunter was instrumental in having Watson come into Claremont as well in the early 1920's when they were at Berkeley.


I still have some more research to go on this end but I can say with confidence that the what I have stated above is accurate.

The timeline that TomMacWood posted is a work in progress and from some of my research some of the info(not much) is incorrect. I have a number of things that I will be adding to this timeline I just need to find the time. It will be very interesting to see where Mackenzie was and what he was up to.

Currently, I am working on an architect timeline for the Bay area and I have alot of good info that I will share in due time. It is interesting to see who was in and around the area and see who was the flavor of the month and who's work was ready to expire.


Tully

[JMorgan]

I still have some more research to go on this end but I can say with confidence that the what I have stated above is accurate.

The timeline that TomMacWood posted is a work in progress and from some of my research some of the info(not much) is incorrect. I have a number of things that I will be adding to this timeline I just need to find the time. It will be very interesting to see where Mackenzie was and what he was up to.

Currently, I am working on an architect timeline for the Bay area and I have alot of good info that I will share in due time. It is interesting to see who was in and around the area and see who was the flavor of the month and who's work was ready to expire.


Tully

Good stuff.  Thanks for the effort.  

[Pete Lavallee]

I recently purchased a book published by Rancho Santa Fe CC, to celebrate the USGA Junior Championship held there this summer. The Club was founded in 1928 and according to the book, asked MacKenzie to design the course. He was busy with the Cypress Point project at the time and recommended his good friend Max Behr. The famous photo of Behr and MacKenzie leaving the first tee at TOC is contained in the book, to establish that they already had consumated a friendship. It is credited as "coutesy of the USGA" and is dated 1924.

[Lou_Duran]

Why he came to the U.S. while interesting perhaps is totally secondary.  That he got here and left us with a substantial legacy (though far too few in number) is what's important.

Immigrants come to the U.S. for a variety of reasons, but economics is #1 by a huge margin.  Dr. Mac could have very easily stayed away from his family in a different part of the UK or even Europe (which has a number of areas with nice weather).

Why CA in the 1920s?  How about great opportunity, growth, weather, natural beauty, fantastic sites, rich soils, undeveloped golf markets (in comparison to the East Coast), and an environment conducive to doing great things.

If Dr. Mac was immigrating today, I wonder what he would think of our political landscape, and if he chose to come to the U.S., whether CA would be his home base.  I have serious doubts about the latter.    

[PThomas]

for our pizza and those California women


and COLD beer

[T_MacWood]

Bob
I was reading some old Darwin and found a mention of Joshua Crane moving to St.Andrews in the summer of 1927 (which Darwin found ironic seeing how critical he was of the course). So I suspect Behr and MacKenzie were there in 1927 or later. Behr attempted to qualify for the British Open in 1929.

Sean
I did a little digging and Sam Whiting is actually British not Welsh. Malvern is in England; it also where Colt spent a lot of his youth playing golf (according to Hawtree).

Whiting did win the Welsh Porfessional Tournament in 1907. He actually tied for the title at Porthcawl and he the other fellow didn't have time to play off...they both had to leave immediately for another tournament in London (News of the World). The follow week they broke the tie at Sunningdale, with Whiting victorious. The next year the gentleman who won the Welsh title was the first native born Welsh champion (TJ Bruce).

Why or how did Meadow Club come to hire MacKenzie?

[BCrosby]

Great find Tom. That pretty much nails it that the meeting MacK talks about in SofSA was in '27, not '26.

The remaining mystery is the date of the MacK/Behr photo at TOC. I too saw the Rancho Sante Fe book putting it at '24. The USGA isn't sure. I suspect it is later. But that's nothing more than an informed hunch.

I think this is worth looking into because I think Behr was a sort of intellectual mentor to MacK, Hunter and others. Notwithstanding problems with some of Behr's prose style.  

However odd Behr may have been (and he was plenty odd), he was way ahead of the pack when it came to thinking through the issues raised by advocates of penal architecture. He invented the term "penal", was the first to make a distinction between penal v. strategic archtiecture. He understood earlier than anyone the threat posed by proponents of penal golf courses. He saw that they had a real tiger by the tail if they wanted to debate the issues with people as articulate as Crane and some others.  

Bob

[Sean_Tully]

Tom-

I didn't catch that fact about Malvern. I just looked at it on the map and it is close, but as you note it sounds like he could be English. I have a couple write ups on his background when he came over from Ilkley to work at Berkeley, so I will look into that a little more. The more I read about Whiting the more I am interested by him as an architect, greenskeeper, and construction super. He was the man to visit when in town and Ross made a point of meeting him when he was at Beresford to see the work Whiting had done at Olympic. He was also one, if not the first, to be working with bentgrass in the area.

Bob-

Also keep in mind that Hunter was also very close to Ross and Travis(even more so) so they would have played a large role in some of his thoughts. In fact, Hunter finally persuaded Travis to visit so that he could see the course Hunter co-designed with Watson at Berkeley.

Tully

[Sean_Tully]

Sean

How far back is your reference to the old "border"? My information dates back to 1924 so that may pre date the current border.

That is a good point on the bloodline.

Tully

[T_MacWood]

Sean A.
I'm pretty sure Whiting is an English surname. I'm not sure what the rules are in the UK, but as soon as he took up residence in the US wouldn't he be considered an Englishman?

Bob
Do you think Behr had more influence on MacKenzie than MacKenzie had on Behr? I tend to look at them as contemporaries who shared similar views.

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