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T_MacWood

Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« on: October 03, 2006, 06:00:29 AM »
Was it for personal reasons or to work with Robert Hunter or JD Dunn or all the above or some other reason?

Mark_Guiniven

Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2006, 06:50:36 AM »
I imagine he went there to design golf courses and stayed there because America came to represent everything he stood for politically and economically.

"I was likening the element of luck in golf to luck in everyday life. Socialists who have already created destitution and misery for millions in Europe have a similar mentality to the anarchists in golf. They believe success in life is due to luck and not skill. ~I left Europe to reside in America because I felt that it was only a question of time for Europe to be destroyed by socialist propaganda and legislation." - AM
« Last Edit: October 03, 2006, 07:01:04 AM by Hux »

Robert Thompson

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Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2006, 07:43:15 AM »
Well, I don't know about the U.S., but I know he came to Canada to see the work of Stanley Thompson! ;)
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

BCrosby

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Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2006, 08:12:50 AM »
I think he came to the US because that was where new courses were being planned in the 20's. That wasn't happening in the UK.

As a bit of speculation, I think his choice of California as a his home was due in part to his friendship with (and great respect for) Max Behr.

Bob
« Last Edit: October 03, 2006, 08:16:10 AM by BCrosby »

T_MacWood

Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2006, 08:29:27 AM »
That is an interesting angle Hux.

Robert, it is quite possible saw more first class courses around world than any man at the time. He was familar with Simpson in Europe, all the great links in the British Isles, Thompson's best courses, Lido, NGLA, Pine Valley, everything in California and Australia/NZ.

Bob, did MacKenzie know Behr before coming to California?

JESII

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Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2006, 08:39:10 AM »
Quote
Was it for personal reasons or to work with Robert Hunter or JD Dunn or all the above or some other reason?



I imagine he went there to design golf courses and stayed there because America came to represent everything he stood for politically and economically.

"I was likening the element of luck in golf to luck in everyday life. Socialists who have already created destitution and misery for millions in Europe have a similar mentality to the anarchists in golf. They believe success in life is due to luck and not skill. ~I left Europe to reside in America because I felt that it was only a question of time for Europe to be destroyed by socialist propaganda and legislation." - AM


Very rare on this site for a question to be answered as clearly, directly and rapidly as this response by Hux.

It appears it was personal Tom.

BCrosby

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Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2006, 08:54:27 AM »
Call me cynical, but I tend to doubt that MacK's move to California was motivated by political purity. (California, btw, had a very active socialist and communist parties in the '20's. Robert Hunter was a member for a time. California was far from being a sanctuary of pure capitalism.)

I think the motive for his move was more prosaic. It was where the work was. The stuff about socialism has the scent of ex post hoc. But who's to say?

Tom -

MacK and Behr knew each other as early as '25 or '26 based on photos of them playing together at TOC. They must have known each other before then. I doubt they just bumped into each other at the starter's shed.

As editor of GI until about 1919, Behr would have known virtually everyone in the golfing world. Another connection was that Behr and MacKenzie were the earliest and most able responders to Joshua Crane's "penal" theories. They were allies in the fight.

In The Spirit of St A., written over several years starting about 1928 or so, after Bob Jones it is Max Behr who MacK mentions most often. Always with great respect.

I wish there were a resource that would nail down some of their obvious connections, but I don't know what that would be.

Bob

   

JESII

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Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2006, 09:06:55 AM »
Bob,

The question asked about the U.S.

Are you suggesting a misquote?

BCrosby

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Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2006, 09:16:14 AM »
JES II -

I'm not doubting the quotation. I'm sure that is what MacK wrote.

My point is that if you were coming to the US for reasons of political purity, picking California from among 48 possible states is a very odd choice. So odd, in fact, that it would not be out of line to think that somethig else was going on.

Bob

JESII

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Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2006, 09:17:43 AM »
Agreed. How long did it take for MacKenzie to migrate to California from his initial landing?



« Last Edit: October 03, 2006, 09:18:09 AM by JES II »

JMorgan

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Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2006, 09:20:41 AM »
Tom, Geoff Shackelford's *Alister MacKenzie's Cypress Point Club* tackles this question.  After Seth Raynor untimely demise, Marion Hollins turned to MacKenzie. "The Cypress Point commission, along with others in the region and a consulting job in Southern California, convinced MacKenzie to eventually make a permanent move to California."  Etc.


Gary Daughters

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Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2006, 09:28:02 AM »

From the quote about socialists, one could surmise that Messrs. MacKenzie and Jones had a lot to talk about ambling around Augusta Natl.
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BCrosby

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Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2006, 09:33:10 AM »
Does anyone know why MacK was chosen by Hollins after Raynor's death?

It is an unlikely choice on the surface. I don't think MacK had ever been in the US before (not sure that's right). Hollins might have chosen from any number of better-known American architects. Heck, Charles Banks would have been the easiest, most logical choice. He could have just finished out Raynor's already completed drawings.

So where did the choice of MacKenzie come from?  Could it have possibly have been on Max Behr's recommendation? He was was one of the few people (if not the only one) in CA that knew MacK before the Cypress commission.

Maybe this is covered in Geoff's book. Just wondering.

Bob  
« Last Edit: October 03, 2006, 09:50:10 AM by BCrosby »

JMorgan

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Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2006, 09:53:46 AM »
Bob, she had been introduced to him through a mutual acquaintance and liked him, and knew he was working in CA on a redesign of Claremont and a new course at the Meadow Club at the time.

BCrosby

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Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2006, 10:02:38 AM »
James -

So MacK was already doing work in CA at the time he was hired for Cypress?  Interesting. I did not know that.

Bob

Anthony Butler

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Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2006, 10:42:37 AM »

From the quote about socialists, one could surmise that Messrs. MacKenzie and Jones had a lot to talk about ambling around Augusta Natl.

Yeah, like "... when the *&$^! is Cliff Roberts going to pay me?"
Next!

David Stamm

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Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2006, 11:24:30 AM »
Dr. Mackenzie came to America in early 1926 at the urging of Hunter. The Meadow Club project was a direct result of the Claremont course he did. After Raynor's death, Mack. met w/ Morse and Hollins for both CP and MPCC. Apparently, Hunter handled MPCC almost exclusively.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Mike_Cirba

Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2006, 12:10:49 PM »
To get to the other side.   8)

Mark_Guiniven

Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2006, 04:54:34 PM »
Wasn't Robert Hunter Jr friendly with Marion Hollins through polo? Didn't he put her in touch with his father who then recommended AM through their connection with 'The Links' book, the Doctor assisting Hunter with the gathering of illustrations?

JES II -

I'm not doubting the quotation. I'm sure that is what MacK wrote.

My point is that if you were coming to the US for reasons of political purity, picking California from among 48 possible states is a very odd choice. So odd, in fact, that it would not be out of line to think that somethig else was going on.

Bob

Bob, AM gives us a possible explanation on the following lines. Here's the full text.

I left Europe to reside in America because I felt that it was only a question of time for Europe to be destroyed by socialistic propaganda and legislation. It is with a feeling of alarm that I notice in the United States the spread of similar doctrines which has led to the misery of British workers. In a time of temporary depression it is so easy to rouse the passions of the people and introduce legislation, like the British dole, which will simply accentuate and perpetuate the evils they are trying to cure. There are an increasing number of Americans who honestly believe, notwithstanding the lessons of history, that wealth producing machinery creates unemployment and poverty. The present depression and unemployment is due entirely to a cessation in the production of wealth owing to the stock exchange crisis causing a stoppage in the use of wealth producing machines. A wave of optimism succeeded by too great  a wave of pessimism. It is the duty of every good golfer and citizen to dam this tide of pessimism and encourage counter propaganda to neutralize false economic doctrines, for if they do not do so, not only golf but everything else that is desirable will go.

---

I know AM had already visited the States before his world trip, but this GI article from Oct 1926 is an important one.

G O L F    I L L U S T R A T E D                                      October 1st 1926, p5                        
Dr. Mackenzie's Tour

Dr. A. Mackenzie, of Moor Allerton Lodge, Leeds, sailed to Australia on September 19 by the ss. Otranto, Orient Line. He is going there for the purpose of designing a new course for the Royal Melbourne golf club, and is also advising other golf clubs there. He is returning by way of California, where he has several big jobs in hand, the principal of these being the reconstruction of the Pebble Beach golf course on the Del Monté Peninsula: the new Cypress Point golf course (situated amongst magnificent sand dunes with glorious views of the Pacific Ocean at nearly every hole), which will probably be the most spectacular course in the world; and in conjunction with his Californian partner, Mr. Robert Hunter (the author of "The Links," a book which has recently been most favourably criticised in this country and is looked upon by many as being a classic on golf architecture) he is designing the Meadows golf course, near San Francisco, and several others in Northern and Southern California.

Other Possible Visits.
Dr. Mackenzie has also received enquiries from golf clubs as to the possibility of his visiting Ceylon, Vancouver, Florida and Jamaica, and he may visit any or all these places. During previous years Dr. Mackenzie has received many requests to visit golf courses abroad, particularly in our colonies and America, but has hitherto refused them owing to pressure of work at home, but this year, at the onset of the coal strike he decided ( with some foresight as it has turned out), that it and its after effects were likely to last for many months and would undoubtedly diminish the volume of trade; including golf courses in this country, and that there could never be likely to arise a more favourable opportunity in the future for taking a long trip abroad without doing much harm to his work at home. Owing to the necessity for returning to his work at home as early as possible he is only devoting a week or two to each place he visits and hopes to arrive home next January or early in February.

Dr. Mackenzie is the pioneer of modern golf course designing and construction in the North. He has advised St. Andrews, Prestwick, Troon and over 300 golf clubs. During Dr. Mackenzie's absence abroad, Major C.A. Mackenzie, his brother, who is managing the British Golf Course Construction Company and the American Golf Course Construction Company, and who has had much experience in the construction and design of golf courses in this country and America, will do his work in his absence. Dr. Mackenzie proposes, during his trip, to give us accounts of golf abroad, and descriptions of Australian and other Colonial and foreign courses.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2006, 05:07:39 PM by Hux »

BCrosby

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Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2006, 05:53:19 PM »
Hux -

Very interesting. Whether you agree or disagree with MacK's political views, his call to man the barricades never led him to undertake, as far as I know, any actual political activity in the US or the UK. Which makes me suspect he was doing the 1920's version of venting.

(I love the bit about "It is the duty of every golfer...." I have this vision of MacK trying to break up a coal miner strike wearing knickers and swinging his mashie niblick.)

I recall that there were long term labor issues in the UK in the 20's. Some were very violent, they crippled the economy and threw things into political chaos. At the same time the economy in the US was sailing along and new golf course projects were springing up on every street corner.

Also interesting about the Hunter/Hollins connection.

Not that it's a big deal, but I am still convinced (with very little evidence, unfortunately ;)) that Max Behr fits into the picture somewhere. There seems to be little doubt that he knew Behr before his visit to Cal., Behr was already doing gca in Cal. when MacK first arrived and the they shared views about gca that predated MacK's emigration to Cal. I find it hard to imagine that they weren't in touch.

Bob  
   
« Last Edit: October 03, 2006, 05:55:11 PM by BCrosby »

TEPaul

Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2006, 06:09:09 PM »
Mackenzie came to the USA for a very simple reasaon----eg he started screwing around with somebody's wife at Alwoodley and he became so unpopular (even with his brother) he had to flee to the penal colony on the other side of the Atlantic known as Califormia.

The A/C movement bigwigs around London told Mackenzie if he showed his face at Alwoodley again after screwing around with an Alwoodley member's wife (who Alisiter ended up marrying) that they'd  chop him into 18 pieces and seamlessly tie those pieces into one of Gertrude Jekyll's "wild" English gardens.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2006, 06:17:04 PM by TEPaul »

Jim Thompson

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Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2006, 06:28:26 PM »
To get to the other side.   8)
I just can't help myself and am a bit shocked Hancock hasn't already posted this reply-

Advancements in Modern Dentistry, of course.
Jim Thompson

Mark_Guiniven

Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2006, 06:35:42 PM »
Hux -

Very interesting. Whether you agree or disagree with MacK's political views, his call to man the barricades never led him to undertake, as far as I know, any actual political activity in the US or the UK. Which makes me suspect he was doing the 1920's version of venting.

Bob,
If you have Neil's Golf Architecture issue 5 have a read through the Round The World articles again sometime. In the third article he writes this of Alex Russell:

"It had been Mr. Russell's intention to go into Parliament, and his name was actally up as a candidate, but he said he would much prefer golf architecture, and I think it possible that in providing attractive golf courses he may do more good for the health and happiness of the community."

Quote
(I love the bit about "It is the duty of every golfer...." I have this vision of MacK trying to break up a coal miner strike wearing knickers and swinging his mashie niblick.)

Very good :)

Re: Behr,
Was he not editor of American Golfer for years prior to AM coming to America? Didn't AM and Behr play St. Andrews with Joshua Crane shortly after Crane wrote that article about British links Mackenzie said was completely upside down. Tom MacWood, if we find that article doesn't that give us a date for AM/Behr?

Joe Hancock

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Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2006, 06:49:53 PM »
To get to the other side.   8)
I just can't help myself and am a bit shocked Hancock hasn't already posted this reply-

Advancements in Modern Dentistry, of course.


Jim,

I let you down. But, I'll make it up to you by inviting you to join me and another GCA'er to golf at the Mines tomorrow mid-day....at the same low fee you always charge me! ;D

Call me.....616.915.3343...I mean it!....You'll love this outta-stater we'd golf with!

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

T_MacWood

Re:Why did Alister MacKenzie come to the US?
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2006, 06:52:04 PM »
Bob/Hux
I was under the impression Behr and MacKenzie first met in California in 1926 and that photo from St. Andrews was 1927. I'm not certain where they met. MacKenzie was in SoCal in 1926 and Behr was at Olympic in 1926. MacKenzie was also at Olympic in 1926. Sam Whiting was involved at Olympic with Behr and also involved at Berkeley with Hunter. Whiting was from Leeds too.

It appears MacKenzie knew Hunter prior to coming to the States...at least he'd communicated with him, MacKenzie contributed a good number photos and diagrams to Hunter's book. Hunter made a six month tour of Britain in 1912, studying the famous courses...ironically I'm pretty sure he was a Socialist at that time.

One of the sources for MacKenzie's frustration with liberal politics may stem from a couple of projects in Leeds. There was one or two municipal courses he was designing for the local goverment that met considerable objections from Labour representatives.

Hux
The Behr article doesn't date when they first met.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2006, 06:58:06 PM by Tom MacWood »