The Double Plateau Green

[John Foley]

Tiger & others,

What I was thinking was the DP had 2 distinct raised sections with another lower section which is also pin-able. The variations could be there, but the basic concept I thought was the smaller front section and larger rear section.

Please excuse the rudimentary sketch, very little artistic talent and not much time.



Section #1 - Rear pad running the width of the green
Section #2 - A larger middle section which is lower
Section #3 - A front pad (#3 in the below image) only covering a portion of the green.

I show a direction of play from the fw. This is how the below hole (#16 at The Bay Club in MA) plays. From the pics I've seen of Fishers the direction of play (I think) is fron the side. Not sure about the others.

[Jim Franklin]

I thought the Double Plateau at Fishers was among my favorite greens anywhere. While some may say Raynor used the same greens on every course, I don't care as long as they are that good. Plus, as DC mentioned, it's all about the routing. Anyway, I wish an architect today would throw out a double plateau like the one at Fishers.

[Pete Lavallee]

Rees Jones built 2 very distictive double plateaus at the revised Torrey Pines South. The green on the 14th hole was moved right to the edge of the canyon and is a traditional double plateau; with a lower center section and 2 raised sections on the sides, a gull wing effect if you want to call it that.

The 4th green was also moved right to the cliff edge and its' green has a lower section at the left (cliff side) with a higher section in the right back and a middle level in the right front.

The theme of "death by tri-section" is maintained throughout the other 16 greens, just not in the traditional double plateau style. When done 18 times it starts to get a bit repetative.

[George_Bahto]

Dave: I'll be working at the Double Plateau green tomorrow morning for a while at The Knoll restoring bunkers - perhaps I'll see you .... it is the 2nd hole at the Knoll - the two plateaus are connected by a thin strip. Banks began dog than later in his career. This one is really dramatic.

Gil and I are building a new green at Sleepy Hollow, changing the last half of the 12 hole - yes, a Double Plateau. Seeded it less than a week ago and the grass just popped.

CBM / SR / CB built at least one of these on every course.

Lots of people confuse the DP and the Biarritz - two totally different animals.

An old photo of the 9th at Fishers Island recently turned up and it looks like the rear plateau of the DP even had a second back shelf - very cool.

[George_Bahto]

I also built on at Stonebridge in 1999-2000 - 460 yd dog-leg 18th hole. The green was well over 10,000 sf when built (hope it still is as big as I planned)

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Dave: I'll be working at the Double Plateau green tomorrow morning for a while at The Knoll restoring bunkers - perhaps I'll see you .... it is the 2nd hole at the Knoll - the two plateaus are connected by a thin strip. Banks began dog than later in his career. This one is really dramatic.

Gil and I are building a new green at Sleepy Hollow, changing the last half of the 12 hole - yes, a Double Plateau. Seeded it less than a week ago and the grass just popped.

CBM / SR / CB built at least one of these on every course.

Lots of people confuse the DP and the Biarritz - two totally different animals.

An old photo of the 9th at Fishers Island recently turned up and it looks like the rear plateau of the DP even had a second back shelf - very cool.

So what IS the difference between a Biarritz and a Double-Plateau.  

For some reason I thought that a Double-Plateau sloped front-to-back, however the back plateau was high enough that shots wouldn't go screaming off the back of the green.  yes... no?

[Donnie Beck]

The 9th at Fishers 1930


2005


2007 should be pretty interesting..

[George_Bahto]

Donnie, thanks for posting the pictures - how great is that picture

Wayne:

Biarritz a "double-green (in todays world), front to back separated bya deep swale.

A Double Plateau is really 3 separate elevations and the two raised portions can be in different configs.  

right front & rear section ... can be left front and rear section etc .... but not side by side .... that is something different (often reffered to as a "Maiden green")

Most times the DP greens is sort of "L" shaped and sometimes like a capital "T" upsidedown, the flat part of the tee on the bottom

[david h. carroll]

Donnie--those pix depict it exactly....Lookout's double plateau is set on a bit of an angle and at Elkridge it's set more straight on with the valley in the middle and narrowing front to back and the small shelf plateaus set out to the sides like a bird with his wings raised in flight.

A contemporary one which comes to mind is Joel Weiman's 18th at Riddle Farm in Ocean City...a rather new course (this year), it has a number of those sorts fo features and options galore!

The double plat there has a pretty deep valley and high plateaus....it's a good finisher.

[Joe Hancock]

It's almost an offset Biarritz, isn't it?

Joe

[George_Bahto]

guys:

I think one of the more interesting things about a DP is that you can "swivel" - rotate it on a flat plane - and get all sorts of interesting approaches.

[david h. carroll]

joe--

not really, the plateaus seem much more pronounced from the surrounding terrain and it's not so much a swale as a lower level...look closely at those pictures Donnie Beck posted...there's almost a sort of apron for the low level and the two plateaus are effectively little, and in the ones i've seen very little, pinnable shelves...not the grand scale of the biarritz and not so straighforward in the front to back sense.

GB--you are on the money with that one!!  Who says templates all yield the same result??!!!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Donnie, thanks for posting the pictures - how great is that picture

Wayne:

Biarritz a "double-green (in todays world), front to back separated bya deep swale.

A Double Plateau is really 3 separate elevations and the two raised portions can be in different configs.  

right front & rear section ... can be left front and rear section etc .... but not side by side .... that is something different (often reffered to as a "Maiden green")

Most times the DP greens is sort of "L" shaped and sometimes like a capital "T" upsidedown, the flat part of the tee on the bottom

Thank you Uncle George.

Will you be at The Knoll this weekend ?[/color]

[M. Shea Sweeney]

A closer look.

[Mike McGuire]

guys:

I think one of the more interesting things about a DP is that you can "swivel" - rotate it on a flat plane - and get all sorts of interesting approaches.

George-

I have heard a lot of classc greens have 3 (or more?) high spots that are swiveled from hole to hole.

Is this swiveling/ a common thread?

[Patrick_Mucci]

M Shea Sweeney,

That's a wonderful picture.

The configuration of the green is the flip of the 11th at NGLA and, it looks like the back tier isn't quite as high, but larger.

I would imagine that the surrounds greatly influenced the configuration of both greens.

Again, it's an awesome presentation to the approaching golfer.

I'm anxious to see the hole.

A few questions for those who have played it.

What's the direction of the prevailing wind/s ?

At NGLA the hole plays downwind and as such there's ample room for run-up approaches and recoveries.  When the hole is on the front upper tier, and the hole playing down wind, an approach landing well short that runs up to the tier can be the shot of choice.  Yet, running long will leave you in a bunker or rough.

How does this hole play, yardage wise and wind wise ?

[Jim Franklin]

Where is the DP at Elkridge? I just played there abd do not remember seeing one.

[RJ_Daley]

Hi George, would you call the 16th (?) at Waunotonomy a Maiden or DP?  As I remember it, it was more double plateau'd from side to side but a distinct trough in middle, not the offset you speak of as a true DP.  (my memory may be sketchy on that).  Yet, the 2nd hole at Blue Mound is interestingly as you describe, with a slight offset diagonal, high left front, middle pie shaped wedge lower and leading to an almost boomer bunker in rear, than high back right section.

green at end of par 5, seen from left side of green approach, 2nd hole at Blue Mound


seen from right side of FW approach, note diagonal orientation.

[Eric Franzen]

I can't stop looking at the 9th at Fishers Island. Great pictures of what looks to be a very interesting hole.

When I think about it... The 2nd at my home course here in Sweden might actually qualify as a double plateau.

[Patrick_Mucci]

M Shea Sweeney, et. al,

What's interesting about the double plateau, in addition to its orientation relative to the angle of attack is the use or lack of fronting features.

FI presents a purely aerial approach, whereas NGLA presents a ground approach as well as an aerial approach, with the ground approach probably being the prefered play.

Other DP's, such as The Knoll's and Essex County's present a different angle of the axis of the green and as such, differing approach shots.

It appears to be one of those green configurations that would work well from almost any angle with a wide variety of green surrounds.

Was it CBM's genius that's responsible for their design  ?

What hasn't been mentioned is that many DP's have a Principal's Nose bunker complex 60-80 yards short of the green, sometimes partially obscuring the green and adding to the interest of the hole

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Pat-

You make a great point. Comparing the double plateau at National and Fishers, we have two very different holes.

The hole plays very downhill, being on the right side is extremely favorable (you hit your tee ball to a blind fairway over a large hill, off one of the coolest tee boxes on the course). The hole plays 364 yards. I hit driver first time I played and had wedge left. The hole location was in the back on the top tier while  playing so severely downhill the thought of playing the ball on the ground is non exisitent. My wedge landed in the swale and had a uphill putt left.

(made par and lost the hole because the gca'er I played with does not know how to miss putts, I swear to god.)
Awesome hole, alot of fun from start to finish.

[Donnie Beck]

I am very excited about getting rid of that ridiculous bunker in front of the green and restoring with orginal swale with Gil this fall. Restoring the orginal design will surely open up the ground game.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Donnie, thanks for posting the pictures - how great is that picture

Wayne:

Biarritz a "double-green (in todays world), front to back separated bya deep swale.

A Double Plateau is really 3 separate elevations and the two raised portions can be in different configs.  

right front & rear section ... can be left front and rear section etc .... but not side by side .... that is something different (often reffered to as a "Maiden green")

Most times the DP greens is sort of "L" shaped and sometimes like a capital "T" upsidedown, the flat part of the tee on the bottom

Gotcha!  thanks for the insight.

[david h. carroll]

Jimmy--

The double plateau is the 11th at Elkridge...the pin was up front when you were there and you nearly made a 2.

It is one that allows for ground game as well as aerial assault when the pin is on the left plateau behind the bunker and also dependent upon the angle created by placement of one's tee shot.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Donnie Beck,

While the picture of the green is spectacular, I was surprised to see the ENTIRE front of the green protected by a bunker, especially since the site is prone to wind.

How, when and why did that bunker come into existance ?