The Double Plateau Green

[John Foley]

Why are they not being built anymore?

I've seen exactly one from a relatively new course and it's full of fun & strategy.

I recently played a relatively new Fazio course that from the fairway looked like it had some attributes of a DP, but alas it just an illusion . I kept thinking how cool would that hole would have been if it was a DP green.

Am I just not seeing them or are they not being built anymore?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

John, Not true.
Gil Hanse & Jim Wagner @ Rustic Canyon #7 (post flood version)
Lee Schmidt & Brian Curley @ Oak Valley 16th
Tom Doak, Eric Iverson & Kyle Franz @ Stone Eagle #13

All three of them are modified Double Plateau's.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John,

I've often asked the same question.

We're fortunate in Northern NJ because Essex County East and The Knoll each have a superior double plateau, although not in the configuration of NGLA's or Yale's.

The 4th hole on the third nine at Montclair has a faux double plateau.

My earlier thread dealing with substantive internal contours mentiioned the absence of plateau features in modern design.

I think they make for highly interesting approach, recovery shots and place a good deal of stress on the golfers putting touch.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Oak Valley #16--You might not be able to see the swale, but it's deep enough to qualify it as a Double Plateau. Good hole too.

[John Foley]

Tommy - Have not seen Rustic post flood. Any pics to share of it?

I would think that Gil could have put one in at French Creek as it would have fit nicely.

How are the ones you mentioned modified?

Pat - Do you think the stress the DP puts on the average golfer is a reason that many architects avoid designing them?

Given today's green speeds how do the older versions at Fishers, NGLA, Yale & The Knoll hold up w/out becoming too severe?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Good question:

 I don't have an image of RC #7 because frankly, I'm not crazy about THAT hole AT Rustic Canyon. It's a really good hole, it's just the features are a bit to busy, maybe a little over the top on a site that originally was shown a lot of restraint. GOOD RESTRAINT.

There wasn't a whole lot they could do there though because the owner wanted the green out of harms way in case of another flood, so they built-up a huge mound of sand and shaped it from there.

Truthfully, I miss the cavalier tactics of the old #7. It fit the terrain and the theme of restraint that was needed to enhance the site. It was also a hole that would bit you in the ass.

At Oak Valley, it's a DP that sort of doesn't pop-up or push-up,, but is more built into the terrain, and that's why it really doesn't seem like a DP when looking at it from the fairway or evenin my image. However, the swale is there and it works as a DP should. You can see it even has a back bunker to penalize the less then stellar play like the original MacDonald version.

At Stone Eagle #13, well you saw that. It's a H-U-G-E green and it's also one of my favorites to gawk at when out there! It's modified ecause of the uphill shot. It still embraces the blindness of a double Plateau and I'm sure Tom will come on here and say that it isnt, but for me I see it as an excellent example of the Golden Age influencing an architect in the Platinum Age!

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Kelly Blake Moran built the 1st green at Laurel Links as a true double plateau.  

[Evan_Green]

Kyle Phillips built this one at Morgan Creek:

[Brian Joines]

Kyle Phillips built this one at Morgan Creek:

This looks similar to a green at Angel's Crossing. I can't remember what hole it was though?

[Jim Thompson]

Brian,

You are thinking of either our "better Biarritz" 6th or an inverted look of 13.  I wish I could get a good picture of number six so these guys could really get a fell for what we did, but by the time you get high enough to show it the image features flatten out.  Maybe i need to take some more pics this fall?

I think our 8th and 14th also fall into some variation of the concept although they have been greatly modified.

Cheers!

JT

[Bryan Izatt]

They're still being built.  I can think of two, both built reasonably recently.

One on my home course, the 5th at St Andrews Valley in Aurora, ON designed by Rene Muylaert.

And, the 11th at Venetian Golf & River Club in North Venice, FL, designed by Chip Powell.  This one has a massive 5 foot deep trench separating the plateaus.  Ron Whiten has a review of the course at Gof Digest.

[Eric Franzen]

Gentlemen,

Search no further than in the design portfolio of Sir Donald J Trump. I'll hereby give you the 12th (short par 5) at Trump National LA.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Eric,
I can't begin to tell you how bad that hole is, let alone the green and the shaping around it. It's not so much a Double Plateau, more like a Triple Lindy! (Rodney Dangerfield's dive at the Industry Hills pool)

[James Bennett]

This one is admittedly about 80 years new! So perhaps it doesn't qualigfy for the thread But...

It is a small, quadruple plateau green.  Two high wings left and right, tiering down to the back middle and a lowest front tier complete with false front.  All compiled into a smallish green size.  Which happens to penalise the long but misplaced teeshot that found the lower ground to the left of fairway, but rewards the shorter but well placed teeshot that challenged the carrying dune and stayed up right.  A green that rewards a 'strategic' heroic carry played to a particular distance and remained on high ground.

Of course, it is Cypress Point #8, the sharp (sorry, that should be SHARP) dogleg right with the blind teeshot.

The green on #8




the approach to #8.  The benefit of the high ground right can be seen.  The ground to the left goes a long way left.



and the tee shot on #8.  Was I confused when I faced this.  I had no idea where to go, and no confidence in my swing when the caddie told me the line.  Couldn't understand why a 3-wood was a better play on the same line as a driver (I do now!).  A bit off-topic, but the three photos together go to show why #8 CPC is such a great 4-plateau green.



James B

[BCrosby]

I always thought of plateau greens as having more of a distinct "step" that was steeper and deeper than the photos above.

Most of the greens above I would describe as highly contoured. They look terrific, btw.

But I woud not have called them Double Plateaus in the MacD/Raynor sense.

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Foley,

I think some have a different idea or concept of how a double plateau is configured, including myself.

I think of a double plateau in the context of # 11 at NGLA or # 16 at Essex County East.

Some of the pictures seemed to be Biarritz greens, not double plateau greens, and I think there's a distinction in form.

My view is, just because a green has several tiers, doesn't mean it's a double plateau, given that my context is in the form of CBM, SR and CB's work.

With respect to how they've held up, I think they've held up exceedingly well.  First, by still being here, and secondly because they provide such a unique challenge on the approach, recovery and putting.

If I had to identify one factor responsible for their demise in modern design, I'd say it was USGA green spec construction.
They'd be difficult if not impossible to get right, especially a green like # 16 at Essex County East.

Perhaps George Bahto can comment on that.

[Dave Bourgeois]

I'm playing the Knoll tomorrow morning and will be out looking for the Double Plateau green.  I'll be interested to see how this differs from a Biarritz since I am ignorant of of such things.  If I can grab a picture I will.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Bob & Pat,
I want to assure you both that I know what a DP green looks like, this is why I call the others modified to some extent. However, these examples I've shown--with the exception to Dump National/Ocean Trails which is an abomination--are in fact two distinct plateaus set on each side of a dip or valley. As Pat has expressed before, there is only so much you can tell from pictures.

[Sean Leary]

Fazio did one at the 3 shot Par 5 third at Aldarra.  The right plateau to very difficult to hit into on your 3rd or putt into if you hit it in the swale..

[mike_malone]

 Pat,

    Would you say the double plateau needs at least one


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        within the green ?

 
                         

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mayday,
Is that one of your field drawings?

[mike_malone]

 Tommy,


   I was going to say "corner", but I tried a picture instead. That's some good stuff I did though. I'm still in the "pong" stage of the digital revolution.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
It would be more instructive if George posted a photo of the one at Essex as it has very sharp definitons, but here is the 17th at Yale:

...and from Ran's review of NGLA:

[Brian Joines]

Brian,

You are thinking of either our "better Biarritz" 6th or an inverted look of 13.  I wish I could get a good picture of number six so these guys could really get a fell for what we did, but by the time you get high enough to show it the image features flatten out.  Maybe i need to take some more pics this fall?

I think our 8th and 14th also fall into some variation of the concept although they have been greatly modified.

Cheers!

JT

The hole I am thinking of was a par 3 with the plateaus at the front and back and a "funnel area" in the middle. I feel like it was on the back nine so #13 could be the one.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

We need to define double plateau if the Trump one is a DP. My home course Oakbourne Cc has a great triple plateau in the same vein as the Trump version. I think of the NGLA, Mountain Lake versions as being DP. I do not feel the more Barritz greens reflect the Double Plateau concept as well.