[wsmorrison]

James,

The royal "We" is Tom Paul.  I'm just the great man's lackey...or as he prefers piss boy.

I don't think we really need a Flynn Society.  When the USGA golf archive and research center is up and running, the Flynn collection will be a keystone collection and all materials will be available so that club committees and members can find their own way and make up their own minds with information all at hand.  Since the Flynn community of clubs is so relatively small, it is a passionate band that knows where the information is and are educated in how to analyze and use it.  The entire Flynn collection of drawings, photos and writings has been digitized, at great expense by Tom and I, with the help of a number of others, particularly Craig Disher from his Nat'l Archives collection.

[T_MacWood]

As an example of what I mean, are the 2 courses you ask about. “Speaking of judicious and careful what did Tilly do at Hollywood and Oakland Hills?” They are listed on the website with the designation “E” after their names. As the legend at the top of the page states, this stands for a course examination.

He first visited the Hollywood CC in Hollywood Ca. on 2/18/1936. As a result of his Complete Examination, he recommended a new 15th green, to remodel the 3rd, 6th, 9th & 16th greens, as well as the 11th & 17th holes.

On 5/26/1936, at the end of his report from Detroit, he stated that, “Here was one illustration, which gave me unusual satisfaction. It was given me by “Les” Madison, whose course at Hollywood, California, I examined this past winter. He told me that every suggestion I had made concerning new arrangements of greens and recontouring was well under way. Not only had the present members indicated their approval but a number of new members had associated themselves with the club. I had recommended that they call in a local course builder, William Bell, to work out my instructions, which he was doing to the letter and with great sympathetic understanding. And what is more, Bell asserted that the visit of the P.G.A. course consultant to California had stimulated his work to a very marked degree. This is highly interesting and significant.”

He returned for a second visit a year later. On 2/19/1937 he wrote in his report that, “Just over a year ago to the day I made examination of the course at the Hollywood Golf Club… I inspected the course to check the work already done and to make additional recommendations… I was gratified to find that many of the recommendations, which I had made previously, had been carried through and that each had proved entirely satisfactory. The 6th green had been corrected; the new 7th teeing ground is now about completed and I OK’ed it; the D.H’s on both 9 and 10 have been eliminated; the new 11th teeing-ground is in use; the return to the original 12th teeing-ground has improved that hole; the 15th green has been built as directed; the new arrangement at the 16th has been observed completely and a fine hole results… In addition I recommended the eventual rebuilding of the 2nd green to remove objectionable terraced levels and also the grassing of the big sand pit on the left; a lowering of the level of the 4th teeing-ground as well… The turf on both fairway and putting-greens shows decided improvement and the advice concerning the spiking of the previously tight greens with sharp sand in the compostings, has proven most helpful.”

Now, what in that sound “dubious?” Too, the association only gave Tilly credit for an Examination despite the numerous recommendations made that were carried out because they were carried out by another architect.

As far as Oakland Hills is concerned, he first visited it on 5/26/1936, conducting a complete examination of the course with Al Watrous at his side. He returned for a second examination four months later on 9/30/1936 at, “The request of Al Watrous, president of the Michigan Section of the P.G.A… [He is accompanied by Waltrous, his son and various members of the club’s executive committee] This is a great course… already the committee has lengthened five holes… however I did not concur with them that it [new tee] had helped the fourth. The fourteenth is the one really weak hole and I gave them a suggestion for a new fairway, extending over a more interesting break of ground to the left of the present and a new green site… I pointed out a number of D.H. sand pits, notably on the first, sixth, ninth and tenth and they agreed with me that they best be eliminated…”

Again, how is the Tillinghast Association’s  listing of this course with the designation of Examination dubious?

Finally, you questioned, and then stated something as fact that is entirely incorrect. “You didn't endorse the tournament? You explained at the beginning of this thread why you weren't concerned with courses misrepresenting the source of their present architecture.”

I never stated anywhere on this thread or elsewhere that I wasn’t “concerned with courses misrepresenting the source of their present architecture.” Not a single time.

Phil
Hollywood in NJ....the landmark Travis course often discussed on this site. Hollywood in Calif is not listed on the Tilly site.

Do you think including Oakland Hills under 'Tillie's courses' is misleading? Yes its dubious. Including courses on his PGA tour - like Oakland Hills - is dubious. He travelled the country giving out free advice, which was mostly the removal of DH bunkers, and most of the time you aren't able to confirm if the work was ever carried out....Oakland Hills as an example.

Even if you were able to confirm it, I beleive including these courses under the title 'Tillinghast's courses' is extremely misleading. Should he be given architectural credit for a courses like Oakland Hills or Hollywood-NJ just becasue he systematically recommended removal of all bunkers 175 yards and in from the tee? His PGA tour should be included under a different catagory separate from his legitimate designs and redesigns.

You said that judging if a course is geniunely Tillinghast's or a misrepresentation is not in your purview...in other words if any course wants to make the claim, so be it. IMO it should be in your purview.

[TEPaul]

"The royal "We" is Tom Paul.  I'm just the great man's lackey...or as he prefers piss boy."

Wayne:

I don't believe I ever called you a "piss boy". At least I don't recall it. All I ever did is inform that rude Ron Forse that if he wants to speak to the head of our company he should call me first, particularly when I'm sitting right there in the car with you. That way I can tell him I'm too busy driving 110mph and trying to develop some revolutionary golf archtiecture concepts at the same time and that I therefore need to pass the phone over to my assistant who can relate my thoughts to him. I think at this point he knows to never again try a stunt like calling you first. That's highly demeaning. There are certain protocols in this type of thing, you know.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You stated, "Phil - Hollywood in NJ....the landmark Travis course often discussed on this site. Hollywood in Calif is not listed on the Tilly site."

You are correct in that the Hollywood, California, course is not listed on the Tillinghast Association website. Let me explain both that and my earlier answer(s) to you.

I was well aware that you were referring to the Hollywood Golf Club in Deal, N.J., but since you had not been specific and had mentioned Hollywood in the original posting regarding the PGA Course Consultation Tour, and your belief that work done during the Tour is “dubious” I felt it afforded me the opportunity to show you a course that proves your premise incorrect.

On the Tillinghast web-site, the Hollywood GC of Deal N.J. is listed. This is a mistake, but NOT quite for the reasons you might be thinking.

Hollywood was not always in Deal. Originally they were located in Long Branch, New Jersey. In 1914 they abandoned the original west side site when their course in Deal was opened. The property in Long Branch was still quite good for a golf club, and so a group leased the property from Hollywood and opened the Norwood Country Club. They restored the course as it existed and began play. There is conflicting information that tilly may have been to the site in the teens to examine it, but since it can't be stated equivocally, we don't.

In the late 20’s the club decided to renovate and called Tilly in who did a complete redesign in November, 1929. (I have copies of his original blueprints for this).

When the Tillinghast Association made their original attempt to identify as many courses as possible where Tilly worked, they did so in categories. These are: “Original Design” “renovations” “Additions” & “Examinations.”

Simply put, a mix-up occurred with the “Hollywood CC” in California getting mixed up with the one in Deal. Tilly worked, as I elucidated in quite a long fashion earlier, at Hollywood in California on his PGA Tour and worked at Norwood, which was leased from Hollywood in Deal, in 1929.

That is an example of a mistake that we had already become aware and we are in the process of fixing shortly when we unveil the new, updated site. By the way, in the Tilly bio, Hollywood in California is the only course mentioned.

If you would like to learn more about the Hollywood/Norwood story, there is a story on the Tilly site titled, “A BRIEF HISTORY OF NORWOOD COUNTRY CLUB.” It was written by Kathy Showler Elfner, whose father John was the assistant professional at Norwood.

You then asked, "Do you think including Oakland Hills under 'Tillie's courses' is misleading?" No I do not. How is it misleading? It is listed as an examination, something hew as asked to do not once, but twice! It is listed quite correctly

You then opined, "Yes its dubious. Including courses on his PGA tour - like Oakland Hills - is dubious. He travelled the country giving out free advice, which was mostly the removal of DH bunkers, [Tom, for the last time  and most of the time you are QUITE MISTAKEN on this. I have copies of every letter and report he sent back to the PGA of America. He recommended the removal of many thousands of DH bunkers, but the VAST MAJORITY of recommendations he made to clubs had NOTHING to do with these. I am sorry that you don't care to believe me, but in the Tilly bio is a day-by-day accounting of where he visited and the work he recommended. You are WRONG!]..."

You continued, "you aren't able to confirm if the work was ever carried out....Oakland Hills as an example." In cases where we are not able to confirm if specific work was carried out or not, they are listed as "Examinations." After all, he EXAMINED the courses in order to make his recommendations."

You further opined, "Even if you were able to confirm it, I beleive including these courses under the title 'Tillinghast's courses' is extremely misleading." I am sorry you feel that way but you are entitled to your opinion just as the Tillinghast association is entitled to theirs. The big difference being that the association has put theirs out in the public eye and are willing to accept and defend against criticism whether it is deserved or not. You only criticise.

You further opined, "Should he be given architectural credit for a courses like Oakland Hills or Hollywood-NJ just becasue he systematically recommended removal of all bunkers 175 yards and in from the tee?" No he should not and he HASN"T been given it by the Tillinghast Association. The phrase "Tillie's Courses" does NOT mean those that he designed, but refers to those he worked on. Again, the designations for this work is :Original Designs (OD), Reconstructions (R), Additions (A) and Examinations (E)

Those are quite specific and easily understood. That you don't or won't accept them as such is your problem.

You also opined, "His PGA tour should be included under a different catagory separate from his legitimate designs and redesigns." I partly agree with this. That is why the updated web-site will make a clearer distinction between the courses he examined and worked on as part of his tour and those he examined before and after it. I disagree with your belief that simply because he made recommendations to redesign a golf course during his PGA tour that it somehow makes it illegitimate. THAT is why the Hollywood CC in California is such a good example. He recommended and laid out a plan to redesign almost the entire course, recommended a local architect to carry it out and who did so according to his plans and ALL the work was done as he recommended.

That you can call that illegitimate or not part of the body of his redesign work is ludicrous. The PGA Tour is filled with hundreds of other examples.

You closed with the opinion that "You said that judging if a course is geniunely Tillinghast's or a misrepresentation is not in your purview...in other words if any course wants to make the claim, so be it. IMO it should be in your purview."

I just went through defending where the Tillinghast association chose to give a "designation" of work done by Tilly and you condemn our doing so, yet in the same breath you condemn us for choosing not to do so on another course. Tom, you are more than a bit disingenuous.  

For the final time, we are NOT in a position to make a determination on whether the Johnson City CC has chosen to misreptresent itself as a Tilly course, and quite frankly, neither are you.

Our encouraging them to learn about and grasp onto their historical heritage is proper and their attempt should be admired, especially by you who seem so quick to condemn any course that makes the even tiniest of changes and doesn't respect the original design.

You are very free to believe what you wish and I respect that. It is my opinion that your belief's in this case are just incorrect.

[T_MacWood]

Phil
Hollywood left the west end site in 1913. Norwood CC took over the old site in 1914. Norwood did not lease the site from Hollywood, Hollywood did not own the land...that was one of the reasons they left. Tilly redesigned Norwood in the late teens....you find it listed in one of his advertisements in 1920.

It is misleading to list the courses Tilly examined on his PGA tour under Tillie's Courses...examination designation or not. They deserve a separate catagory from his designs and redesigns.

I don't know if Tilly was at Hollywood-Deal examining anything in the teens or not, I think it is more likely he went there on his PGA tour. I recall him mentioning a course that had 200 or 300 bunkers where he recommended removal of a huge number of traps....that sounds like Hollywood.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom, You wrote, "Hollywood left the west end site in 1913. Norwood CC took over the old site in 1914..."

Hollywood was not always in Deal. Originally they were located in Long Branch, New Jersey. In 1914 they abandoned the original west side site when their course in Deal was opened. The property in Long Branch was still quite good for a golf club, and so a group leased the property from Hollywood and opened the Norwood Country Club.

You then wrote, "Norwood did not lease the site from Hollywood, Hollywood did not own the land...that was one of the reasons they left..."

Norwood DID lease the site from Hollywood, it was doneas a "Sub-Lease" to the original lease. In Ms. Showler's article on the Tillinghast association website about Norwood's history, she writes, "The new club leased the property from Hollywood, with James Lloyd executing the subleasing arrangement."

You then wrote, "Tilly redesigned Norwood in the late teens....you find it listed in one of his advertisements in 1920."

Tilly did not do a large redesign of Norwood in the late teens. The work done in 1920 was minor compared to what would be done in 1929 when the course would be completely redesigned. It was mentioned in the advertisement because it appeared that he thought a major redesign was going to happen at that time and it didn't, with just the minor facelift taking place. The reason for this were cost overruns in the new clubhouse that was being constructed by Wendehack to replace the original that had been burned to the ground in a fire in 1919.

Norwood was mentioned in Tilly's ad for another and more important reason. The advertisement could hold a handful of club names only and he chose to list the clubs with the most impact and importance to the reader. In Norwood's case it's importance as a club rested in the individuals in their membership rather than its architectural merits.

The club was completely redesigned and expanded in 1929 after they managed to do what Hollywood had been unable and purchase the property themselves.

The club would itself fail "in the mid-1930's because of the depression, the real estate eventually falling into the hands of Hollywood member Howard Strauss. He sold the property to the West Long Branch Lion's Club in 1953, and the by-then dilapidated clubhouse was restored to become the West Long Branch community center the following year."

The blueprints for Norwood were found a few years back by a worker on the renovation project for the Lion's Club. His son now has them.

If you would like, I can email you photos of the actual blueprints for the 1929 redesign. What is really stunning to see in these is that they are the ACTUAL BLUEPRINTS and not white sheet copies.

You then wrote, "I don't know if Tilly was at Hollywood-Deal examining anything in the teens or not, I think it is more likely he went there on his PGA tour. I recall him mentioning a course that had 200 or 300 bunkers where he recommended removal of a huge number of traps....that sounds like Hollywood."

Tilly was not at Hollywood-Deal during his PGA Tour. I have all of the records for this and it clearly was not part of it. As I have said several times already in this thread, they can be found as an appendix in the Tillinghast biography.

As always, you are entitled to your opinion as to the methodolgy that The Tillinghast Association chooses to use when listing the courses that Tilly worked on, just as the Association is entitled to list them as they feel they should.

[Mike_Cirba]

Philip,

It seems to me that Tilly did a lot of work in that very immediate area, including Suneagles.

Do you have any information on the course that today is known as Old Orchard GC in Eatontown, circa 1929 (I STRONGLY suspect it's Tillinghast), or something called Myosotis GC that was also very nearby?

[Phil_the_Author]

Hi Mike,

I have seen several references to old Orchard but nothing that involves Tillinghast. Since you believe so strongly That it is a possible "missing Tilly" (and there are still a good number of them) I will do some research and see what i can come up with.

All I know of Myosotis is tha Tilly designed it and it no longer exists. There is another that we need to learn more about.

[T_MacWood]

Tom, You wrote, "Hollywood left the west end site in 1913. Norwood CC took over the old site in 1914..."

Hollywood was not always in Deal. Originally they were located in Long Branch, New Jersey. In 1914 they abandoned the original west side site when their course in Deal was opened. The property in Long Branch was still quite good for a golf club, and so a group leased the property from Hollywood and opened the Norwood Country Club.

I know, that is why I wrote they left the west end site...West Long Branch...otherwise known as the west end site.

You then wrote, "Norwood did not lease the site from Hollywood, Hollywood did not own the land...that was one of the reasons they left..."

Norwood DID lease the site from Hollywood, it was doneas a "Sub-Lease" to the original lease. In Ms. Showler's article on the Tillinghast association website about Norwood's history, she writes, "The new club leased the property from Hollywood, with James Lloyd executing the subleasing arrangement."

I did read Ms. Showler's article.

You then wrote, "Tilly redesigned Norwood in the late teens....you find it listed in one of his advertisements in 1920."

Tilly did not do a large redesign of Norwood in the late teens. The work done in 1920 was minor compared to what would be done in 1929 when the course would be completely redesigned. It was mentioned in the advertisement because it appeared that he thought a major redesign was going to happen at that time and it didn't, with just the minor facelift taking place. The reason for this were cost overruns in the new clubhouse that was being constructed by Wendehack to replace the original that had been burned to the ground in a fire in 1919.

Are you sure Tilly didn't do a significant redesign in the late teens? What exactly was done in 1929...my guess is they may have wanted to lengthen the course...what was the yardage on the '29 plan? I found an article (1921) in which Norwood was mentioned along with Baltusrol, Quaker Ridge, Shawnee, Philadelphia Cricket to illustrate what a fine architect Tilly was....my impression is that it was a pretty good course.

Norwood was mentioned in Tilly's ad for another and more important reason. The advertisement could hold a handful of club names only and he chose to list the clubs with the most impact and importance to the reader. In Norwood's case it's importance as a club rested in the individuals in their membership rather than its architectural merits.

The club was completely redesigned and expanded in 1929 after they managed to do what Hollywood had been unable and purchase the property themselves.

The club would itself fail "in the mid-1930's because of the depression, the real estate eventually falling into the hands of Hollywood member Howard Strauss. He sold the property to the West Long Branch Lion's Club in 1953, and the by-then dilapidated clubhouse was restored to become the West Long Branch community center the following year."

The blueprints for Norwood were found a few years back by a worker on the renovation project for the Lion's Club. His son now has them.

If you would like, I can email you photos of the actual blueprints for the 1929 redesign. What is really stunning to see in these is that they are the ACTUAL BLUEPRINTS and not white sheet copies.

Please do...I would love to see it.

You then wrote, "I don't know if Tilly was at Hollywood-Deal examining anything in the teens or not, I think it is more likely he went there on his PGA tour. I recall him mentioning a course that had 200 or 300 bunkers where he recommended removal of a huge number of traps....that sounds like Hollywood."

Tilly was not at Hollywood-Deal during his PGA Tour. I have all of the records for this and it clearly was not part of it. As I have said several times already in this thread, they can be found as an appendix in the Tillinghast biography.

Are you familar with the course Tilly spoke about that had more than 300 bunkers.

As always, you are entitled to your opinion as to the methodolgy that The Tillinghast Association chooses to use when listing the courses that Tilly worked on, just as the Association is entitled to list them as they feel they should.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You asked, "Are you sure Tilly didn't do a significant redesign in the late teens? What exactly was done in 1929...my guess is they may have wanted to lengthen the course...what was the yardage on the '29 plan? I found an article (1921) in which Norwood was mentioned along with Baltusrol, Quaker Ridge, Shawnee, Philadelphia Cricket to illustrate what a fine architect Tilly was....my impression is that it was a pretty good course."

I'm uncertain of the entire scope of work that was done by Tilly in late '19 & '20. I have been told that they were seeking a major renovation to the course but had to scale it back because of the monies that were needed for the new clubhouse.

It was always considered a decent course and it could be that whatever work that ended up being done was viewed as greatly improving the course. For example, if they worked on 3 holes only and these were holes that caused players to view the course as less than great, and as a result of the work there were now 18 very good holes, I can understand why a writer would use it as an example of his good work. But that is mere speculation. I am fairly certain, though admittedly could be wrong whough I obviously don't think so, that the work done then was minimal compared to what was originally planned and that is why, just 8 years later, the course was completely redone.

The yardage on the 1929 plan was 3155 yards - front and 3265 yards back 6420 yards total. Interestingly there were only 2 par-5's (505 & 550) and the par-threes were relatively similar (200, 175, 180 & 185)

You then begged  , "Please do...I would love to see it."
I just emailed the 5 photos of the prints to you. Hope you enjoy them.

You then asked, "Are you familar with the course Tilly spoke about that had more than 300 bunkers." Yes, it is vaguely familiar to me. I believe that he may have mentioned a course with this many in one of his Golf Illustrated articles. I just did a quick read through of my PGA Tour chronology and didn't see mention of it, though they are just the briefest of daily information.

I will email that to you as well. I will also look through my archives to see if I can find it.

By the way, flipping through the PGA Tour list I was reminded of my favorite stop of his when on April 8th, 1937, he stopped in Lexington, Kentucky to "visit Man O' War!"

[T_MacWood]

Phil
Based on the plan in Dan Wexler's book, which I presume is based on a 30s aerial, it doesn't appear the 1929 plan was ever executed. The plan was dated November 1929...very bad timing.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

I'll check on that and let you know. It was my understanding that it had been.

[Tony Ristola]

Quote Mike Young:
"If Misrepresentation was not something that golf courses went after you would not have Pro golfers acting as consultants, or Signature architects having different levels of involvement where the same last name can be used on a project...it allows the client the ability to misrepresent while not misrepresenting.....
Misrepresentation just happens to be a fine line
400 courses in a lifetime with some just a one day visit....is that a misrepresentation????Today it would be.  JMO"
LOL. You know where I stand on this one.
"Misrepresent without misrepresenting." "A fine line."?
Sound like a good book, or article at least: The Price of a Golfers Conscience. (That's the nice one)
I've asked it before. Where are the architect associations in this little skit?

[Mike_Cirba]

Hi Mike,

I have seen several references to old Orchard but nothing that involves Tillinghast. Since you believe so strongly That it is a possible "missing Tilly" (and there are still a good number of them) I will do some research and see what i can come up with.

All I know of Myosotis is tha Tilly designed it and it no longer exists. There is another that we need to learn more about.

Hi Philip,

I've had discussions with Rick about Old Orchard, and among other distinct features there are an island green on the 7th hole.   In fact, when I saw the pic of the island greeen at Suneagles (which is a few blocks down the street) in the first Tilly book by Rick, his brother, and Bob I could have sworn the pic was taken at Old Orchard.   I've long suspected that Myosotis and Old Orchard are one and the same, but the current course management doesn't have a clue about their history, nor do they seem to care much.  Much of the elongated bunkering also looks like Tillie.

An aerial can be seen at http://tinyurl.com/nqf4b

The island green is in the upper right, and zooming in will give you a pretty good sense of the features.

Just as intriguing is the Paramus Golf Course in northern Jersey, another course that is now public who doesn't know who their designer was.  It was formerly the Saddle River Country Club, built around 1928, and 1924 US Open winner Cyril Walker was the first pro.  The course is immediately adjacent to Ridgewood CC and built at virtually the same time.

The aerial shows Paramus on the left and Ridgewood holes on the right.   I find it hard to believe Tilly wasn't involved, but it would certainly be interesting to understand the origin of Ridgewood's neighbor.  Again, some elongated bunkering leads me to think it's a high likelihood that Tilly was involved.

http://tinyurl.com/qd5jg

An aerial  

[Mike_Cirba]

Shamelessly moving this up so that Philip doesn't miss the info above.

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

You have to respect a man with no shame!

I appreciate the information. It goes onto an ever-increasing list of courses and information to research... but then again, that's the fun in all of this.

Tony, you asked, "I've asked it before. Where are the architect associations in this little skit?"

What would you have them do? I can speak for the Tillinghast Association and tell you that a number of the memebrs are working very hard at researching as much as possible about every golf course that Tilly is supposed to have been associated with. Yet, and as I told Tom earlier, it is not up to us to make an "official designation" as to the architect of any particular course as if we are an official certification agency. Rather, the most we can do is express what will hopefully be, very informed opinions that clubs can use as advice.

Here are few examples of what an association such as ours comes across.

The first has taken place earlier on this thread in my discussion with Tom Macwood about Norwood. My information, which comes from scouring old golf magazines, newspaper accounts, articles written by children of past member professionals, and having personally taken photographs of the actual 1929 blueprints for the course renovation.

Tom, after I sent him an email with the photos believes that the 1929 renovation didn't take place after comparing the photo of the prints with an aerial that he has seen of the course from "sometime in the 30's."

So what is the actual stiory of Norwood? There is a lot more research that needs to take place before anything definitive can take place. If Tom is correct, then the story as has been surmised to this point (Norwood leasing from Hollywood, planned major renovation in 1919-20 curtailed because of clubhouse fire late 1919, then full-blown 1929 renovation before going out of business in late 1930's) needs revising. If it is mistaken, then proper understanding of the aerial (which I have yet to see, not Tom's fault just my lack of time) has to be furthered researched.

In either case, there are a lot of unanswered questions about a course that everyone knows that he redesigned.

Then there is the Dellwood Country Club in New City, New York. This was originally the private estate golf course that Tilly designed for Hollywood mogul, Adolf Zukor.

After he died his estate sold it and it was opened as a public course and named Muntain Farms before a group got together and leased the course and it went private, now being renamed Dellwood.

In the 1950's the club decided to renovate and redign the course including a complete re-routing plan in order to make way for a housing project. They hired RTJ Sr. who drew plans.

Up until three years ago the club believed itself to be an Tillinghast course redesigned by RTJ Sr. They were mistaken. In their archives are the plans of Tilly's design and a great deal of correspondence with RTJ SR., much of which devolved into, "Where is my money... Give me my money... I won't do anything until I get my money... I'm not doing any work for you..."

RTJ Sr. was never paid by the property owner (for some reason he was responsible because of the housing project) and never did the proposed work. The housing project never happened. Two minutes of comparing the Tilly plans and the RTJ Jr. plans to the actual golf course showed that it was as Tilly designed it (other than a grrenside bunker renovation done in the late 80's early 90's).

The club now embraces it's Tillinghast history and heritage and is now actively seeking to preserve it.

Then there is the Colonial Golf Club in Atlanta, Georgia. Construction on this course began on 10/1/1928. There are photos of Tilly with blueprints directing construction in the newspaper. Regular articles commented on construction progress, even mentioning a summer 1929 official opening. The design was over 7,000 yards in length, a monster back then. There were to be two greens for each hole; one with Bermuda grass the other with Bent. It was to be a course that they hoped would regularly host the U.S. Open. Bobby Jones was asked to be on the board of directors. They even mentioned that it was to be the first gold course in America designed without any rough.

The market crashed a few months after it opened and the bonds floated to pay for it all failed overnight and as quickly as it opened to great fanfare, it closed, the property being taken over by the city of Atlanta.

Jusat a few years later the city of Atlanta opened a municipal golf course that they called the Bobby Jones Golf Club. It was built on the EXACT site of the Colonial Golf Club.

I personally made this find just in the last two months. It leads to many exciting possibilities. Is the existing course actually the one Tilly designed? Is there any of what was built part of the BJGC? Where are the records, blueprints, etc...?

There are several people helping me research these and more as we hope to find out the story of this course that may have been one of Tilly's greatest designs and now has been completely forgotten about. So much so that even Tom Macwood, after I emailed him the information and asked if he knew of anything, was unable to find anything.

I found it by a complete accident; I was looking for information on the only couirse that anyone knew that Tilly designed in Atlanta, Ingleside. The Atlanta Journal keeps an on-line archive of its papers through June of 1929. typing in "Tillinghast" brought me to a series of articles that I never expected to see appear and that end far too soon to be able to tell the whole story.

So, in these 3 cases, what is an architectural association supposed to do? Since all of them are made up of unpaid volunteers, aren't they by nature very limited? Still, we hope to be able to find a definitive answer for Norwood and Colonial/Bobby Jones GC just as we were able to do for Dellwood.

Frankly, each of the Architectural Associations would more than welcome new members, especially those who can help in the research needed to be done. We have a very small window of opportunity to actually recreate what most of, as Mike Young likes to put it, what the "Dead Guys" did.

It is only by getting this information that heritages that need preserving can be aided in doing so.

Time to climb off my soap box.    

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