Can a course be great if

[Tommy Williamsen]

it doesn't have at least one great short par four.  I think not.  It can be fun, strategic, and give all kinds of options.  It may be one of the most difficult holes to design though.  Sometimes it is way too penal with almost no place to hit it off the tee. and sometimes it is too easy.  At my club Smyers designed a hole that looks like a pushover.  There is plenty of room off the tee and has a large green.  If you are a big hitter it us possible to hit the ball up the right side and the land will take it left and onto the green. BUT the green is tilted so it is very hard to hit the ball close to the pin.  Par is pretty easy--birdie tough.  It is so sublte though that it takes time to appreciate it.

[david h. carroll]

I love that hole!!  It's darn near my favorite at 4 streams, and I played it a couple of years ago with Chris Riley who layed way back off the tee while I cranked it up with driver up the right bounding down to the green...we both smiled walking off with birds that were accomplished from entirely different strategies.

[John Kavanaugh]

Bethpage Black is great without a great short par 4....I see no mention of one in Ran's review..

[Tommy Williamsen]

David, I guess I did not disguise my course very well.  I have played it both ways and agree it is fun both ways.

John, I agree that Bethpage black is a great course.  Do you think a short par four would enhance it?

[John Kavanaugh]

John, I agree that Bethpage black is a great course.  Do you think a short par four would enhance it?

Of all the arguments to improve the 18th I don't ever recall a short par 4 being an option...so I would say no...How short does a par 4 need to be to be short anyway..

[Geoffrey Childs]

Tommy

I don't believe there can be any set rule to what determines if a course is great except that it have world class golf holes. I don't buy those arguments for greatness in some courses that the sum is greater then the parts. Hogwash.  Without a series of great holes and thrilling shots tehre are no great golf courses.

Bethpage Black is indeed a great course.  Personally, I think it could be better with a great short par 4 but perhaps Tillinghast didn't think forcing one on that property would work.  I would have thought the 2nd hole could have been a truly great short par 4 with a better green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

I think the problem with the question and your answer is the tendency to narrow the issue to the context of the PGA Tour and their Championship tees.

The 18th at Bethpage is a relatively short par 4 as is the 6th hole, even from the back tees.

I don't think isolating or limiting the focus to PGA Tour length golf courses is a valid exercise.

And, with the way those guys hit their drivers and irons, every hole is a short hole, some are just shorter than others

[Mike_Cirba]

The 18th hole at Bethpage Black was a short par four as Tillinghast designed it.    The 6th also qualifies.

Neither was driveable but both were drive and pitch holes.

I don't know what to call the 18th these days.

[Jim Nugent]

Does Shinnecock have a short par 4?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Nugent,

# 1 and # 13 used to be short par 4's, and with a north wind,  # 4 and # 8 were short par 4's.

Some felt that # 15 was a short par 4.

Alot depends upon the tees one plays from.

Few play the "OPEN" tees.