[Brian Joines]

Does anyone have a current aerial of the course? I am looking at it on google satellite and I cannot find hole #8 on there. Well I can't find a par 3 with a forced water carry atleast.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Look at the part of the property bordering NGLA. The 9th tee is next to the National.

[Matt_Ward]

Clearly the layout of the Sebonack property determined a number of isses -- the cottages, placement of the range, etc, etc.

I have to say initially I thought the 1st hole was rather disconnected from the bulk of the course but after playing it I have come to view it as a stroke of genuis in how it's been positioned and the effective nature of how it serves as the starting hole.

*****

12th hole / 165 yds (par-3)

The short 12th gets you thinking about the hole as you descend down the hill from the 11th -- you can easily see it in the background as you putt on the 11th green. In some ways it mirrors the same feeling as you walk donw the hill at 11 at ANGC and see the 12th in the background there.

There are multiple tee boxes for the 12th and during my visit there is work well underway to create additional boxes and angles to play the hole.

The 12th plays towards the Peconic in the background -- although it doesn't come into play.

The unique aspect of the 12th is that the green is rather long and there is an abrupt fall-off to both the right and left sides. If your approach is not completely accurate -- especially to a rear pin placement you will find your ball running away down the slopes that fan out on each side.

Because of the multiple tee boxes you can play the hole from a myriad of different angles and the direction / velocity of the wind plays a huge role here.

13th hole / 550 yds (par-5)

IMHO, the best par-5 on the course. As you walk up slight hill from the 12th green to the 13th tee you enter an enclosed area of the course. There are trees on both sides but the feeling of #13 is far from being cramped.

The wind was blowing hard (15-20 mph) out of the east when I stepped on the tee. There is a rather imposing bunker on the left hand side and I was told that Nicklaus recommended that the bunker be extended a bit more towards the fairway to keep the better / longer players in check. It serves that purpose and more.

The carry is roughly 275 yards when you face such a wind only a very small number of players can reasonably handle the carry. Those who opt to play to the far side and down the right only add on more yardage to the hole.

When you reach the preferred landing area you see the green in the distance -- there is also a water hazard on the right side and although the water doesn't run up to the edge of the green it certainly plays a role with one's second shot.

To the credit of the designers the options in playing #13 are several. You have two cross bunkers that are well-placed. If you have a desire to tangle with these bunkers the carry is indeed significant -- especially in the wind. I hit a solid drive and had roughly 270 yards left to the hole -- I simply hit a six-iron and layed-up immediately between and behind the two cross bunkers -- leaving me roughly 60 yards to the hole.

The cross bunkers are not to be trifled with when playing the hole. Frankly, if you contemplate a try in carrying them -- the left cross bunker is more of a doable option as it's a bit closer. However, even if you do carry both of them the only real gain is for the player who can take the 2nd shot all the way to the green -- leaving a 40-50 yard 3rd shot to a well-contoured green is often no bargain.

In regards to the green -- there is a frontal bunker that sits quite nicely to catch those who happen to play a bit too cute with their approach. The green does have two unique parts -the upper left is likely the more demanding area because it is quite small, contoured well and has a very demanding bunker that tugs on the same side.

The aspect of #13 that really hit home for me is that the totality of the hole is really 100% strategic. It doesn't have the best of the ground areas from an off-course visual perspective like the 2nd or the 11th, to name just two, however, it's the totality of the strategic consequences that really impressed me. There will be birdies at #13 but they won't be given away.

14th hole / 432 yds (par-4)

Like the 6th -- the 14th is one of the more underrated holes at Sebonack. The teeing area sits below the fairway and the landing area is blind from the tee -- a strategic consideration that I like because of the "unknown factor" it plays with the player's heads when executing.

The hole favors a fade (wonder if Jack suggested this) and your aiming point -- if you decide on an aggressive line -- is a scrub grass plant that serves as an aiming tool when on the tee.

Unseen by the players on the tee is a bunker that is a bit further down the fairway on the right side. It is well placed and serves its purpose.

What adds to the uniqueness of the 14th is the putting surface. It runs on a slight diagonal from upper left to lower right and tilts just a tad in that direction. The most interesting aspect of the hole is that it's quite narrow from an approach perspective. If you happen to hit your approach with too much steam it's quite possible you will overshoot the green -- and if that happens you will need to play a superb recovery because the fall-off behind the green is rather steep.

Like I said before -- the 6th and 14th will likely not make the top tier listing of holes at Sebonack -- but they both provided for me a real sense of the strategic consequences that the design provides.

Often times when you have layouts with "interior" positioning on the routing it is there holes which can be a bit of a disappointment because they lack the pizzazz you see with the more noted holes. That doesn't happen at Sebonack and I see it as a real strength of the course.

15th hole / 616 yds (par-5)

The 15th plays generally back into the prevailing wind -- on my visit the wind was blowing hard from the east and had more of a left-to-right characteristic.

As you stand on the tee you see a well-positoined fairway bunker -- take a 265 yard carry over the far right edge. The key is determining how much you risk to dare in flirting with the bunker. Strong players should try to bite as much as possible because the run-out over the bunker is considerable as the fairway tumbles left. The more you play away from the bunker the longer the hole and the likelihood the fairway falling left will carry your tee shot away.

One of the more striking visual elements in playing #15 is the view you receive when you turn the corner of the dog-leg and see the green in the distance -- framed by bunkers that pinch in the landing zone for the 2nd shot and the Peconic just off in the distance.

Players need to pay attention to the bunkers because they tend to narrow the landing area the further you go with the 2nd. The putting surface -- like so many others at Sebonack -- is appropriately contoured. If you happen to be just short of the green the slopes are indeed complex and invite only the best of plays.

The final three are yet to come ...


Tom MacWood:

Can't compare them because I have not played both as of yet.

[Noel Freeman]

Matt-

I think the strategy as you describe in on #15 is not fully correct.  Taking the risk on the right side on #15 does nothing really for you.  I went down that side and was completely stuck.  There is nowhere to go given the way the hole bends hard right and I don't think you gain an advantage or shorten the hole--it is deminimus strategically to dare the hazard.  The right call is to fire it down the ample left side which both Ran and Tom Doak did when we played.  I believe Tom's advice was to play it more that way unless I can hit a giant power fade.  I didnt listen, that bunker is fool's gold.
Even though you may extend the hole a bit at 600 yards going left,  you arent getting home in 2 going right and if you are off on your drive, the trees down the right will make you get home in 4.. There is no reason to flirt with that side.

I'm interested to see what you think of #18 as well with strategy.  Obviously a stunning hole and with the water left, one is tempted to think you get the advantage of driving down the left side and daring the hazard but I'm not sure there is any advantage to that play..

[Matt_Ward]

Noel:

I can only relate my feelings from the first impressions I got with the hole. I don't doubt that the "opening" you refer to can be had more easily by playing left.

However, I believe you tend to forget or minimize the runout you can get from playing over the bunker -- the slope downwards is quite noticeable. The professional I played with mentioned his round with Trip Kuehne on the hole and that he played aggressively down the side I mentioned and was able to land his 2nd shot pin-high to the right -- I believe it landed in the right hand bunker from what I can recall.

No doubt the percentages say to do what you suggested.

[Noel Freeman]

Matt-

A player of Trip's length may be able to do that play a good portion of the time..That said, Sebonack is a members course and if I was one, I would never play down that side unless it is downwind, even from the member tee.  Now if they cleared out some trees on the right maybe I would.  Still at 600 yards, most golfers will never reach in two even if shortening the Dogleg makes it play 550 yards or so.  The only hole I've ever played by Tom that bends that hard is the 16th at PD and that is a much different hole in ethos and of course a short par 4 which is much more open.

The shot demands of 15 are very high in my mind for the intermediate golfer unless he plays safely.  Then again, like you, I've only been to Sebonack once..

[Matt_Ward]

As one makes the final trek over the last three hole at Sebonack you encounter a trio of concluding holes that is indeed different and compelling in a myriad of ways.

16th hole / 378 yds (par-4)

This hole is really the question mark hole because so much of it will change from what is there now.

Originally the area behind the existing green site was planned for a home for Michael Pascucci. After reflecting upon the idea of having a solitary house on the property, he opted to do otherwise and leave the site untouched by such strucutures. Hats off to him indeed for the smart choice that will benefit the course for years to come.

The 16th generally plays downwind and from what I was told there was concern about not having a long par-4 in the mix among the concluding holes.

The existing 16th plays slightly uphill in the tee shot area and a bit more uphill as you come into the greensite. There is a large fairway bunker on the right hand side and the fronting lip is quite steep for those who finish too far into the bunker.

The fairway also bottlenecks between the bunker and the left hand rough -- the effective width is roughly 20 yards max. The tee shot is not an easy play if you are not relatively straight. The approach is played anywhere from a either wedge to short iron.

I personally liked the existing hole but there's movement afoot to open another green - it's nearly finished -- roughly about 60 or so yards behind the original. The total length for the "new" hole will be in the area of 440+ yards and it certainly will grab everyone's attention when it opens.

The fairway is being widened a bit more on the left to deal with the extra length and, I believe, there will be some work on the right hand bunker so that its existing severity will be scaled back just a bit.

The new par-4 16th will certainly be much more demanding. The uphill nature of the hole mandates a tee shot that finds the short grass. The "new" green is also well contoured and you must be sure to get your approach all the way to the "new" target as there will be serious challenges for any possible up'n down play.

I'll be most interested in the comments of those who happen to play it when it does open likely sometime next year.

[Matt_Ward]

Mea culpa on my part -- I stated the "new" yardages for the 16th incorrectly.

The tip tee distance goes from 376 to 458 yards -- the old 14 handicap number will no doubt change with the added length.

The blue tees go from 353 to 432 yards.

The white tees go from 331 to 413 yards.

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

How does Sebonack compare to Ballyneal and Dismal River? (A collaboration versus the solo acts)

Jim

[wsmorrison]

All this description of Sebonack and no talk of the amazing and revolutionary tees?  The free form tees that followed the ground were a real eye opener to all of us that toured the course last year.  I asked Tom if they were designed so that the course can play in reverse in the off season for relief.  He said they were not.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Wayne-

I have seen the course a bit, could you elaborate on these "revolutionary" tees?

[wsmorrison]

They are integrated with their surrounds in a very natural way unlike tees we're used to seeing.  The actual teeing grounds are level but the ties to the surrounds blend in so well that it flows very well over the ground rather than looking built up.

[Sean Leary]

Ballyneal has the same  freeform tees...........

[Matt_Ward]

Jim F:

You're getting ahead of the story -- I can likely provide some comments vey soon.

***

17th hole / 210 yds (par-3)

The unique aspect of the 17th is that it turns completely around from the direction of the 16th and FITS so well between the different holes.

To the credit of the design teams the green complex is well done -- set on a diagonal with a high mound that guards the right 2/3's of the putting surface.

The member I was paired with hit the top of the mound and got the kind of "member's" bounce you always envision. The ball's momemtum was deadened with the soft sandy area and still managed to roll onto the green no more than 10 feet away.

I personally like the 17th because you need to fit the shot to the characteristics the hole provides. Being short and a bit to the left isn't a bad play because anything long or off to the far sides can mean a rather lengthy time in playing the hole.

18th hole / 560 yds (par-5)

Here is where Michael Pascucci insisted upon a closing par-5 instead of the length par-4 type hole that both Nicklaus and Doak had envisioned.

Suffice to say -- the closing par-5 idea works very well IMHO.

The teeing area at #18 is well done -- you simply walk off the back of #17 and ascend a small rise to the back of the tee box location. The Great Peconic is off to your left and you see the flag atop the poll at National Golf Links blowing in the distance.

Down below the elevated tee you see the finishing hole in all its glory.

The tee shot is where it all begins at #18. You can take a risky line and try to hug the left side. Any type of hook will mean a certain death because of brush on that side or water if it's that badly hit. There are a series of bunkers down the right side and you need to avoid them at all costs.

What needs to be added is that there is a well-placed cross bunker that is located a bit further down the fairway. The wind conditions for the last hole when I played featured a fairly brisk right-to-left wind -- neither helping or hurting.

The second shot is where you must really do some serious thinking because where th eflagstick is located dictates the play. If the pin is hard right you have more room to play and can afford to hit as close to the green as you dare. If the pin is cut tight to the left side of the green -- which features a lower level than the right -- you must be sure to either reach the green in two blows or leave yourself enough room and angle to spin your 3rd accordingly.

The pin when I played was on the far right -- just above a small rise and fairly accessible. If you happen to have the pin on the far left and you get stuck in the no man's land of 40-50 yards and anywhere on the center or left had side of the fairway you will need to make a Seve-like shot in order to get and stay close to the pin.

More than anything else as you walk down the fairway the totality of where you have played begins to set in with such lasting impression The views and the golf bring you home in fine fahsion as the 18th brings into play a wide range of situations and numbers.

Credit Michael Pascucci in having the last word for such a solid closing hole.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

 Wayne,

thanks I understand.

[Alex_Wyatt]

Matt, I have been looking at this site for 4 years. I haven't agreed with you yet.  C'est la guerre.  This thing isn't as good as Tallgrass, let alone National or Shinnecock. There isn't a single hole where the story the architects told makes sense. Where what they asked of us was reasonable and what we got for doing what they asked was proportionate or poetic. It's beautiful and very difficult. It's not a Doak 6.

Isn't the tragedy of all of this not one mediocre golf course, but the loss of Tom Doak as an independent voice of what's good? Who more than Doak is responsible for the opportunity that quality architecture has today?

To see him defending Jack on the Abysmal River threads is just sad. Tom, we all hope you haven't sold your soul and will come back to the good side of the force. We need you.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think the strategy as you describe in on #15 is not fully correct.  Taking the risk on the right side on #15 does nothing really for you.  I went down that side and was completely stuck.  There is nowhere to go given the way the hole bends hard right and I don't think you gain an advantage or shorten the hole--it is deminimus strategically to dare the hazard.  The right call is to fire it down the ample left side which both Ran and Tom Doak did when we played.  

I believe Tom's advice was to play it more that way unless I can hit a giant power fade.  I didnt listen, that bunker is fool's gold.
 
Even though you may extend the hole a bit at 600 yards going left,  you arent getting home in 2 going right and if you are off on your drive, the trees down the right will make you get home in 4.. There is no reason to flirt with that side.

Noel,

I'd agree with you.

I hit it down the right side, over the bunker, thinking I'd gain an advantage.  But, it's just the opposite.  The stand of trees on the right thwart a direct shot at the green.  I had to hit a good fade to get just short of the green, and if my ball didn't fade, I'd have been in some ugly stuff.

The play is down the center or even favoring the left.
There is only risk with NO REWARD for going over the bunker and down the far right side with your drive.  And, should your drive drift further right into the woods, you're in deeper trouble.

As to # 18, it presents the golfer with a wonderful dilema off the tee.  It's optically intimidating and the wind can magnify the fear factor.

But, I think you may be right, hitting to the right, which initially doesn't appear to be the play of choice, may be the correct decision.  What you lose in yardage you gain in safety.  Even if you go in bunkers, the hole is short enough to allow for recovery and reaching the green in regulation.
And, I don't mind the angle of attack from the right.
Obviously the wind could influence my comfort zone.

I liked the par 5's, although # 13 wasn't my favorite.

# 15 and # 18 were higher up the totem pole for me.

The tiny green complex with the unique greenside bunkering on # 15 added to my enjoyment of the hole, and # 18 was a terrific finishing hole, an eagle or a telephone number, depending upon your play.

I thought the course was sporty from the blues and too difficult for me from the blacks, especially with the prevailing winds.

[Noel Freeman]

I think the strategy as you describe in on #15 is not fully correct.  Taking the risk on the right side on #15 does nothing really for you.  I went down that side and was completely stuck.  There is nowhere to go given the way the hole bends hard right and I don't think you gain an advantage or shorten the hole--it is deminimus strategically to dare the hazard.  The right call is to fire it down the ample left side which both Ran and Tom Doak did when we played.  

I believe Tom's advice was to play it more that way unless I can hit a giant power fade.  I didnt listen, that bunker is fool's gold.
 
Even though you may extend the hole a bit at 600 yards going left,  you arent getting home in 2 going right and if you are off on your drive, the trees down the right will make you get home in 4.. There is no reason to flirt with that side.

Noel,

I'd agree with you.

I hit it down the right side, over the bunker, thinking I'd gain an advantage.  But, it's just the opposite.  The stand of trees on the right thwart a direct shot at the green.  I had to hit a good fade to get just short of the green, and if my ball didn't fade, I'd have been in some ugly stuff.

The play is down the center or even favoring the left.
There is only risk with NO REWARD for going over the bunker and down the far right side with your drive.  And, should your drive drift further right into the woods, you're in deeper trouble.

As to # 18, it presents the golfer with a wonderful dilema off the tee.  It's optically intimidating and the wind can magnify the fear factor.

But, I think you may be right, hitting to the right, which initially doesn't appear to be the play of choice, may be the correct decision.  What you lose in yardage you gain in safety.  Even if you go in bunkers, the hole is short enough to allow for recovery and reaching the green in regulation.
And, I don't mind the angle of attack from the right.
Obviously the wind could influence my comfort zone.

I liked the par 5's, although # 13 wasn't my favorite.

# 15 and # 18 were higher up the totem pole for me.

The tiny green complex with the unique greenside bunkering on # 15 added to my enjoyment of the hole, and # 18 was a terrific finishing hole, an eagle or a telephone number, depending upon your play.

I thought the course was sporty from the blues and too difficult for me from the blacks, especially with the prevailing winds.

Pat- I thought of NGLA's 18th where you gave Geoff Childs and myself one time the Mucci Law as GC calls it--which is never hit it left into the bunkers on your first and second shots or it is death..

Anyway, the parallel is this, the 18th at Sebonack plays the opposite of the 18th at NGLA with the water on the left instead of on the right.  At NGLA you have to hug the water side to get the right strategy and play into the hole.. You gain an advantage that way-- At Sebonack I'd never do that (play down the left (waterside), you have plenty of room on the right even with the bunkers as they are.. It may mean lengthening the hole but to me it isnt worth flirting with the left side as there is no advantage... Now if the hole would have been a par 4 as TD envisioned it, you'd have a different argument b/c you need to try and reach the green in two.  Perhaps they will update the 18th with a crossbunker or eyebrow bunker to make you take a side.  I do agree that making 5 there as a par 5 makes your finish more enjoyable.

I was honored to have Tom Doak play with me at Sebonack.  B/T him and Ran you have two people who can uniquely look at a golf course even if Ran was trying to bash his brains out in their match.   For me #2 is the finest hole in the complex and I am quite fond of the par 5s as you are.  Although #9 is a notch higher in my book to #13 as well.

Sebonack is interesting in that it lets you play golf off the tee with width but I felt as you get closer to the hole, things narrow up a bit.  It makes shot execution paramount.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Noel,

The contrast between the 18th holes at NGLA and Sebonack is interesting.

With respect to the 18th at NGLA, while rule # 1 is, don't hit it in the left side bunker and rule # 2 is, go back and read rule # 1, there is ample room to the right and you're hitting into an upslope with the water much further to the right.

At # 18 at Sebonack, the water on the left is much closer, visually and practically, and, you're hitting from a highly elevated tee, down to the fairway.  Initially, it doesn't look like there's ample room right, and the wind up on that tee has a more dramatic impact on one's brain as they prepare for the shot.

I think it's a wonderful finishing hole, and while it might have been far more difficult as a par 4, it gains the element of "sportiness" by being a par 5.

With respect to # 13, I wasn't enamored of the water feature short of the green, but, I liked the hole.  It would be a toss up between # 9 and # 13.  I liked the blind nature of # 9 and I liked the risk/rewards at # 13.  My thoughts were that the bunker short left of # 9 green might have been a Nicklaus addition, but, I could be wrong.

The large expanse provided by holes # 2 and # 3 is interesting.  I think that large expanse disorients the golfers feel for spacial relationships.  Visually, I think it's  hard to get a handle on distances to the bunkers from the tee, especially on a windy day.  I think that's an asset.  Deceiving or discomforting the golfer is a strong architectural feature, IMO.

One of the things that I'm hoping will happen to those who play Sebonack is as follows.

I hope they return to their home clubs and promote widening, not narrowing, their fairways.

TV, in conjunction with the PGA Tour and the USGA have created a headset that clubs must narrow their fairways to present a challenge or offset to the distance problem.
Unfortunately, many clubs have erroneously fallen for this strategy.

Sebonack can be an example of the concept that fun and challenge can be preserved with WIDE fairways.

[Matt_Ward]

The key concern I have for Sebonack is that the overall firmness is maintained. I played the course a very short time after a full aeration and I don't want to use my one time visit as being some sort of definite statement on the firmness of the turf.

However, for the fullest range of elements to be experienced the firmness aspect needs to be a key element in bringing forward the design elements found there. The grass does provide for it and the last thing I would like to see is for the course to play slower with less uncertain bounces being included.

*****

Alex:

Nothing like blowing smoke -- how bout you go back and
re-read what I previously forwarded to you.

If you seriously believe Tallgrass is a better gofl course than Sebonack then you must really be smoking some serious grass.
Tallgrass is no better than the 4th or 5th best public course, at best, on the Island IMHO.

You never answer questions directly -- let me try again and see if you can follow the bouncing ball -- OK ?

1). I asked you if you are a member of any of the east end clubs on Long Island ?

2). Since you trashed Dismal River -- I have to ask you if you have played the course personally ?

3). How many Doak courses have you personally played ?

You said the following, "There isn't a single hole where the story the architects told makes sense." That's a wonderful 19th hole deep in the left field seats comment. How bout a bit more analysis on your end to explain that more fully ?

I also asked you to list your top tier layouts that you have played on Long Island -- in order to get a better sense of your golf tastes. So far nothing.

You say Doak has lost his "independent voice" and I have to wonder if you know that Doak was the primary person responsible for the routing Sebonack has and given what the property is -- it's truly remarkable and well done. The routing take you through the entire property and there is a complete insistence that no shot or hole patterm repeats itself. If anything Sebonack is more about Doak -- with Nicklaus touches here and there as well as the inclusion of ideas from Michael Pascucci.

You also say the course is no more than a "6" on his scale. Surely, you jest. What do you presume to give Tallgrass -- a 7 or 8 ?

In regards to what Doak provides for the quality architecture meter you need to get out and see a bit more golf throughout the USA. There are a number of architects who have demonstrated the capacity to produce quality and fun places to play. Albeit many of them don't have the deep-pocket owners or the incredible sites or the fanfare / visibilty -- but they do have the wherewithal to produce such courses.

You also stated, "Tom, we all hope you haven't sold your soul and will come back to the good side of the force. We need you."

Again -- a great sound bite but what does that mean ?

If anything Doak and his creative team are hitting full stride and creating golf courses that go beyond just the "look" element and incorporate the "play dynamic" for the fullest range of players. Once can see that with his success at Stone Eagle on a very demanding site -- with Ballyneal and now with Sebonack.

Alex, with all due respect, I don't see regression -- I see an evolving sense in how golf design can go beyond a mere duplication of tried and true formulaic efforts. Doak is being smart enough, thus far, to avoid being tight-cast as a predictable johnny-one-note designer.

Your comments -- and answers to questions posed -- is appreciated.

Thanks ...

[Noel Freeman]

They are integrated with their surrounds in a very natural way unlike tees we're used to seeing.  The actual teeing grounds are level but the ties to the surrounds blend in so well that it flows very well over the ground rather than looking built up.

Wayne, I forgot to respond.. They are extremely natural and a great homage I would guess to the origins of the game.. And I don't think they are angled so Matt should be happy!!

[Jerry Kluger]

Matt: Okay - it's time for Matt's Take - you've played some very special new courses this year including two in New Jersey, one in New York, one in Colorado and one in Nebraska, and some others that I am missing - are you willing to rank them in the order of which you liked the best - I can't imagine that you would say that any one of them was bad, but which is the best and so on?

[Matt_Ward]

Hey Jerry:

You missed one in California -- Stone Eagle -- three Doaks in one year isn't too bad !

There's a few others you left out but they don't fly high on the GCA radar -- as of yet.

I'll be happy to share my listing -- but like Xmas -- it's coming.

[wsmorrison]

Thanks, Noel.  They are extraordinary,  For the tees to stand out on such a powerful impact course as Sebonack is something.  I guess not everybody noticed them.  I found their design fascinating.  I hope to go back to the course someday to see changes since I was there last year.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I wanted to bring 17 back up. I loved this wonderful par 3. The green complex makes birdies and a four putt well within the possibilities each time you play it.

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