Sebonack's Bold Move to Trinity Status

[Mark Hissey]

Patrick.

I was happy to see that you noticed that bunker on fifteen. When Tony Russell was building that, I thought right away that it looked a bit special. The three prongs of it reminded me of a Manx symbol and I can never get that image out of my mind for some reason.

I love the one on the right side of the second green also at the base of the pine-topped hill but as some of you may have found, it is absolutely awful to get stuck in particularly if the pin is on the right.

I'd love to have a few smaller bunkers on the course, but I just have a personal preference for that. The one on eighteen is about the smallest we have and I like that one a great deal.

I'm still working Jim for one on sixteen when we rebuild it next week. But, I have a feeling that is a lost cause for me...

[Matt_Ward]

Jim N:

There's no doubt that time is a key ingredient in determining overall greatness.

I titled this thread for a specific reason.

I believe Sebonack has the goods to be mentioned in the same breath as its two neighbors. Clearly, as Pat mentioned, the courses are different and that difference is what makes them so appealing.

Sebonack, as Pat correctly stated too, needs to be played from tee boxes that correspond to what a golfer can reasonably achieve. If people don't understand their limitations the net result will be a long and painful day -- particularly if the wind and speed of the course / greens is optimum. Once that happens people incorrectly "tag" a course as being "such and such" when in reality it's the player himself who failed to really understand the caliber of player they are and chose the tee boxes that best fit their respective profile.

As I opined earlier -- I only see the 7th and 8th holes as a bit less than what you find throughout the course. No doubt the green contours are demanding but people need to be cognizant of where to place their shots throughout the round.

When I read comments that people have said "and it (Sebonack) could be better" I have to ask where is the details to support such a conclusion ? Where are the elements that people claim are missing ?

Sometimes greatness does land on day one -- it doesn't have to wait a zillion years for some to then grudgingly admit what was obvious from the get-go.

Frankly, my most recent headache for analysis is which course I liked better -- Ballyneal or Sebonack. I'm still having a tough time in deciding that one.

[Mark Hissey]

For those of you who have had the misfortune to see me play, you will know that I am far from a good golfer. I have the odd flashes of brilliance but a lot more disasters.

Consequently, I play from the white tees. I have no qualms about it at all. For me, and I can be objective and honest, the course is just a tremendous amount of fun even when I get into some really tough situations. In fact, I have one personal gripe from the whites and that is that my tee shot is so obscured on #3. But, that's just me being picky. If I buy into the undisturbed philosophy of the place then I clearly have to deal with it.

Others can comment more on the difficulty of the course. I can comment on the fun of it. I have yet to see anyone come off eighteen and not be smiling and laughing. I think that says a lot.

[George Pazin]

Great post, Mark.

Could you describe what makes it fun for you? Is is the variety of shots? The challenge they offer? Both? The rhythm of the course?

Inquiring mind want to know....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Hissey,

As we discussed, the fine tuning that follows the opening of a golf course is an ongoing process.

Ross did it for 26 years at Pinehurst, MacDonald for decades at NGLA.

What's unique about Sebonack is the concept of "consensus" with respect to the decision making process with ongoing alterations.

The other good thing about fine tuning is that mistakes can be undone in subsequent years.

Matt Ward,

I couldn't agree more about tee selection.
All too often, the macho types, especially those who take liberty with the scorecard, want to play all the way back.

We've had this debate about ANGC.

I think there may be a handicap threshold for going to the back tees.  Maybe it's 4, more than likely it's 2 or lower, especially for courses like Trump National NJ, Baltusrol Lower, ANGC and Sebonack.

I take my hat off to Kenny Bakst for politely* suggesting to a member that perhaps he'd enjoy himself and the game of golf more if he moved up from the back tees.

I've always gravitated toward the back tees, so I understand the lure, but, when the back tees were beyond my ability, I moved up.

Recently I played the West Course at Westchester from the back tees.  It was cool, windy and there was NO roll.
I had to hit the ball exceptionally well in order to have an enjoyable round, which I did, but, had my game been off a bit, those tees would have been too much for me.

One fellow in our group started on the back tees and moved up on the second hole.  Another fellow moved up on the third hole.

I found Sebonack far more treacherous from the back tees.

At most clubs, if you spray the ball, you'll just be in the rough or another fairway.  That's not the case at Sebonack.  If you spray the ball, which can be what happens when you try to hit it far, you'll be in for a long day and a high score.

More clubs should have a sign similar to that which resides near the first tee at Bethpage Black, only I'd add the handicap kicker as a requirement for play from the tips.

End of rant.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Hissey,

Many forget that the game, the round, is supposed to be fun.

Challenging one's abilities, but fun,

When one plays from the wrong/long tees their abilities are overwhelmed and it can't be fun, especially for those who are playing with them.

On a typically windy day, Sebonack from the back tees should only be played by 2 handicaps or less.

[George Pazin]

On a typically windy day, Sebonack from the back tees should only be played by 2 handicaps or less.

You're talking handicap ranges I am unfamiliar with, so bear with me a little on these questions :

I was under the impression that the biggest difference between single digit handicappers and scratch golfers and better was the short game. I would have thought plenty of single digit guys have the driving skills to enjoy a really long course.

Doesn't that imply that many (or even most) single digit handicappers should be able to handle almost any back tees? (Obviously I'm not talking about the tippy tips at an Ocean Course or something like that.)

Does it say something about a course's design if they can't?

[Mark Hissey]

George.

Like any course I suppose, the more you play it, the more you learn. However, in my humble opinion, I think that there is so much to learn on Sebonack and when you hit the shots you've intended, then they are remarkably fulfilling.

For instance, the drive on the first hole gets you in a great mood. Do your job properly and hit it just to the right of Chet's Tree and you'll have a great approach to the green and a reasonable chance at par.

The second is a bogey hole for me. The God's will really have to be smiling for me to par it. So, for me a good drive allows me to knock the ball up to the left of the green for my second shot. I can then work it as close as I can to the pin with a desperate hope to make par.

The third always elates me because for some bizarre reason, I always play it pretty well. I play it to bogey it, but I can very often par it. A good drive down the right will see me hit a second shot up to the right of the green as close as I can get it. Then, for my third, you can work the ball up onto the green and get cute with it because it runs right to left. If I go long when the pin is on the right, I can hit a very long put and heroically escape with a bogey. I love it.

The eighth and ninth kill me pretty much all of the time, though I am learning more and playing them better.

Eleven is my favorite hole and I has been since the minute we finished clearing the center lines. I was on the telephone with Jim Urbina as I walked down the line and hit the turning point. It was a running commentary of my astonishment of how good it looked. "This hole looks amazing Jim. God, it's starting to open up. It looks like this view to the green is going to be unbelieveable. Oh **** Jim, you have to see this view!!!!".
Anyway, back to playing it. A decent drive to the right side of the bunkers will hopefully carry you as far as possible down the fairway. If it has gone a fair distance, I'll hit my second into the hollow in front of the green and try to make a five. If I have hit my drive short, i'll hit my second shot as far as I can and then five-iron it up onto the green (my Welsh ground game comes into play here...). That shot can be as much as 100 yards for me and is one I always enjoy playing.

I've finally got the hang of thirteen and can play it well now. I actually almost birdied it the other day. Needless to say, I NEVER try to play the hero and hit the second shot over the pond, regardless of how well I've hit my drive.

Here's another interesting odyssey which you might want to make a note of. The other day I sliced my drive on eighteen. It went a long way but was in the middle of the second fairway. So, I hit my second shot as far as I could go down the second fairway. I caught it cleanly and I went as far as I could go, right in front of the ladies tees on two. My third shot was a bit of a tough one. I had to thread it under the Northern Elm and over the bunkers onto the green. Luckily I managed it and ended up making a par. That route made sure I avoided the Coffin Bunker which terrifies me.

I could go on and on about it. It's just fun for me and I hope everyone else has as much fun.

[George Pazin]

Thanks, Mark, that was very thoughtful and well written, and I understand better what you meant.

[ed_getka]

Mark or Patrick,
   Play devil's advocate, if you don't mind, for me regarding #11. From the day I walked that hole it's greatness just screamed out to me. An earlier poster stated he didn't think the hole was all that great, although he didn't give any reasons. If you were nitpicking about #11, what would you say keeps the hole from being world-class?

[Alex_Wyatt]

In the modern age, injecting strategy into par 5s has certainly become challenging.  Can anybody describe the strategic logic of either 15 or 18 at Sebonack? I didn't see any in either hole.  On 18, the risk is left with the bluff and water, but there is no apparent reward for taking that route. Actually, as Mark H pointed out, playing down the 2nd, way off to the right,  for the tee ball is completely feasible if not advisable. On 15, I couldn't see any purpose in playing anywhere near the fairway bunker.  From the fairway bunker to just short of the green the fairway is very wide and featureless. Its one of the better greensites on the course actually, but why is there absolutely nothing to consider on the 2nd shot? Whether one hits the ball 100 or 225 or anything in between, the landing area is essentially the same width. This is very pretty golf, but it certainly doesn't require much thought about risk/reward in either case.

[Tom_Doak]

Alex:

I don't think a long par five has to have 15 bunkers in order to be a great hole.

Few players have any chance of getting home in two, yet taking on a bit of the bunker on the tee shot might mean shortening the approach by 40 yards, which is important on a hole of this length.  And, though there are no bunkers in play on the second shot, the trees intruding from the right have to be gotten past, which is much more difficult if you don't take on the bunker off the tee.

On 18, all you have to do is bomb it down the middle off the tee, but it's important to hit your second shot to the left side of the fairway if you want any chance of getting close for a birdie putt.  And, coincidentally , it's much harder to place your second shot to the left if you leak your tee shot out to the right for safety.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ed Getka,

It's hard to find fault with # 11.

Alex,

Into a prevailing wind, with a tiny green, I think # 15 provides a more than adequate challenge.

And, # 18 as a par 4.5 does the same.

Tom Doak,

Standing on the tee and bombing the ball down the middle is a lot harder than you allude to.

It's an intimidating view from the tee and the prevailing wind prevents a ball from finding the middle of the fairway unless the golfer mis-hit his drive too far left.

As to the contention that the length of the third shot doesn't matter, I'd disagree with that.  I think the contouring in the 18th green demands a shorter approach if one wants to make birdie or par.

George Pazin,

Having played the golf course, I stand by my assessment that the tips should be reserved for golfers with handicaps of 2 or less.

When two zero handicaps, whose games I"m familiar with, stated that the golf course is too difficult for them, that reinforced my view.

At 7,220, with difficult greens, good bunkering, high winds, water and woods all about, only the more highly skilled golfer should play from the tips.

If you have information to the contrary, please supply it.

[Alex_Wyatt]

Tom, I don't think a long par 5 has to have 15 bunkers either, and I don't think your characterizing my criticism as asking for that is terribly fair.  That 15th hole is just asking for something, anything to disrupt the landing area on the second shot.  I'd settle for 1 bunker. Or something else.

As for 18. If you have something as imposing as the left side, wouldn't you want to figure out a way to give the player who really challenges it something for his trouble? If I played the course a hundred times (which I probably won't after all of my criticism ) I would NEVER go anywhere near the trouble on that hole.

I think I am going to sign off because I don't want to ruin the lovefest. I do think its ironic how many people have privately messaged me to tell me that they agree with my comments, but nobody really wants to step up publicly.  We really do need to be sure that there aren't any sacred cows here or we will lose our authenticity and impact.

[Tom_Doak]

Alex:

You're entitled to your opinion of the golf course, it's not going to ruin my day.  And I'd love for you to go ahead and keep criticizing it, if you think you can teach me something.  And get some of those people who are IM'ing you to pitch in, so we can tell they're not just figments of your imagination.

Just one thing to disrupt the second landing area on 15?  It's the trees on the right, which are more effective than any bunker would be.  Plus, the landing area for the second shot goes over a crest about 140 yards before the green, so there really wasn't any place to put a bunker that you could have seen that would have much effect.  I suppose we could have put a bunker on the left side into that slope, but that would've forced the members to the right (and into those trees).

As for 18, if you don't ever want to flirt with the trouble on the left, you don't have to ... but you're not going to make many birdies on the hole that way.  It's a really hard approach to the left side of the green if you're not coming in from the left side, and it's a pretty tight approach to keep it up top on the right, as well.  I think that makes the hole.  What would you have done differently?  I can't imagine loading up the hole on the right much more than we did.

[ed_getka]

Alex,
   What keeps #11 from being a world-class hole? I forgot to ask you about your Tallgrass comparison earlier in the week? Please give some examples of why Tallgrass is better than Sebonack.
   I really don't have a problem with you thinking Sebonack isn't the greatest course in the world.

[Alex_Wyatt]

Tom Doak,

If there is one thing I know for sure, its that I can't teach you anything!
I am surprised though that you think that the 18th is better approached from the left side of the fairway.  Wasn't my impression, but I've only seen it once. Maybe I'll have to buy the book so I can have a look at the pix. And your comments regarding the 15th are interesting.

And, by the way, I don't much appreciate your insinuating that I am lying about the messages I have received, if that's what you meant by your comment. Why would I do that? It really is not that important what people think of Sebonack, is it?

[Matt_Ward]

Ed G:

The 11th is a superb hole -- I just think the combo at #2 and #3 are even better -- no fault with the 11th though at all.

Tom D:

The strategic elements / re: 18th hole are quite clear and very straightforward. The aggressive play is with driver down the left side -- which allows for the possibility in long hitters getting there in two or even have a very short pitch.

The issue is that the left side requires a deft play. The pin situation on the left side is also quite strong and requires no less than the surest of strokes with the short iron / wedge.

Yes, birdie is indeed possible but the hole doesn't offer them at a wholsesale rate -- to anyone.

Alex:

Nice to see you back in the discussion -- however -- you still tap-danced around all the questions I posed to you previously. Do you think I forgot -- or better yet -- maybe it's you that have developed convenient amnesia.

You stated that Tallgrass is a better course than Sebonack. Surely you jest.

I asked you about your membershio status / re: east end clubs. You took the 5th.

Ditto the listing in order of the best clubs you've played on Long Island -- again the 5th.

You mentioned Tallgrass as being in the 8 Doak scale range --without ever spelling out in any great detail why.

I salute you for stating your feelings but when pressed with legitimate and fair follow-ups you cut and run and then declare they are irrelevant. Nice answer.

By the way Alex, count me in the same column as Tom D regarding the best angle into the 18th hole. Anything from the center to far right of the fairway for the 3rd shot approach to the 18th green will have to be executed with the highest of skills and precision.

Let me also mention the idea of sacred cows -- I don't have the least bit of reservation for bringing forward my opinion. And I do appreciate your opinions -- just try to be sure to follow-up with concrete answers to questions previously posed - it allows for a much fuller discussion.

[Alex_Wyatt]

Gee whiz Matt, I thought my answer on the LI club question was clear. None. Not that I wouldn't love to join any one of them, even Sebonack, if you are offering to pay my bond!

What is the point of all of this listing of stuff? That often seems to be your retort. What will you learn from a list? I think I can name 10-15 courses on Long Island that I would rather play than Sebonack.  Let's start with Garden City, Bethpage Black, Piping Rock, Creek, Meadowbrook, Friar's Head, National, Shinnecock, Maidstone, Atlantic, the back 9 of Easthampton, Westhampton, Fisher's Island. Haven't played the Red, or Seawane, or Plandome or Fresh Meadow, so I don't mean to diss them by leaving them off the list.

Can anybody post a photo of the 18th green at Sebonack?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Alex,

While it's risky getting there, I'd rather approach the 18th green at Sebonack from the left side rather than the right side.

I like playing away from trouble when approaching a green rather than playing toward it, especially when the prevailing wind will help me versus accentuate my errors.

And, the green and surrounds at # 18 favor an angle of attack from the left.

Remember, that rear tier, as it descends to the lower portion of the green slopes toward the bluff.  I'd rather hit into that than hit with it.

I think # 18 is a sporty finishing hole with eagle or birdie within one's grasp, while bogie, double bogie or worse loom large to the careless or errant golfer.

Bethpage Black is a great golf course, but, that's too rich of a diet for me on a day in and day out basis.

Sebonack is a good golf course.
Some will consider it great, others will consider it less than great.

[Matt_Ward]

Alex:

With all due respect -- you opined Tallgrass is a better course than Sebonack. Surely you jest.

I asked you for a listing of courses on the Island you believe are better than Sebonack in order to get a handle on your tastes. Do you really believe Maidstone has the goods for 18 holes and is better overall than Sebonack? Ditto Atlantic? Westhampton? I asked for a listing in order to get a better sense of what you prefer from a design side of the aisle.

In regards to Tallgrass it would be pushing hard to hit the Island's top five public layouts -- check out Bethpage Red when time permits. Ditto Oyster Bay in Woodbury. Ditto the main 18 at Spring Lake in Middle Island.

Alex -- you also opined that Doak's voice is less than what's it been in the past because of his comments on the collaboration with Nicklaus. It's great to shoot for the NY Post headline -- quite another to throw forward some meaingful details to support such conclusions. Please help me out here.

Thanks ...

[Adam_Messix]

First of all, everyone involved with Sebonack should be applauded for the job they did with the course.  

A few thoughts...

The way they integrated the tees into the surroundings is outstanding and unique.  Someone mentioned Ballyneal's tees being similar and they are with 12 being as close to resembling Sebonack as any of them, but the look at Ballyneal is different with all of the prairie grasses surrounding the tees where at Sebonack there is a lot more shortgrass and sand.  

The start is excellent and it's not hard to get fired up walking to the practice tee and seeing #1 to the left, then you get to the second tee and all you want to do is stand and admire the surroundings, not just the water, but the layout of the bunkering in front of you.  

There is a lot of local knowledge to the course, particularly in where to miss approach shots.  On a hole like #2, a miss on the "short side" is preferable, particularly when the hole is on the right side of the green.  The caddies disagreed on this, but the chip from the left side down the hill to a right hole location is really tough whereas the bunker shot from the right is pretty simply and has a backstop behind the hole.  There are certain holes like 7 where the inside of the dogleg is the preferable angle and others like 11 where the outside is preferable.  The only thing I really disagree with Matt W on is #7, which in my mind is an excellent par four hole with a tricky green.  

The greens are interesting and the contouring is not too difficult given their size.  

I really liked the internal bunker contouring where golf balls always seem to go to the bottom of the bunker and not wind up with goofy stances or lies.

The par fives are downright interesting.  We played the course with a 20-30 mph wind off of Peconic Bay so three of them played difficult, but they are well laid out for both winds.  I particularly liked the 9th and the way the bunkers are laid out.

I agree with the others, 18 needs to be approached from the left to get the approach close.  The only approach in our group that got within 10 feet was from the left side of the fairway.  

In total, Sebonack is an excellent course that I look forward to returning to, hopefully with the wind blowing from the other direction.  I think we also need to remember that every new course gets tweeked a little bit once it gets played (including courses that we all respect like Pine Valley) and I'm sure Sebonack will too, but everyone involved should be congratulated for the job they did.

Brad Klein--

Excellent job on the Sebonack book, I just finished it.  I recommend it to the group.

Tom Doak--
With the wind blowing hard from the left on 18 and after watching the first two players hit good drives down the left side get blown into the right bunkers (both were sub 5 handicaps who tend to draw it.)  I aimed my tee shot at the bunkers and let it blow into the 2nd fairway.  Did you and Nicklaus see that as a viable option with the wind blowing hard from the left?  

[Tom_Doak]

I'm really curious how all of you guys are getting out to play Sebonack -- did you all call Matt Lauer and say you were his biggest fan and just wanted to play one round of golf with him?  Or, have they relaxed the guest policy for raters?

Adam:  In all the days I've been at Sebonack, I've only seen the wind blowing left-to-right across the 18th once.  We really never discussed it.  Personally, I was always okay with a big slice winding up on the short grass on #2 because the slice will take enough off the tee shot that it's hard to get over the cross bunker with the second.

[Sandman]

Hey Matt,

Thanks for your brief thoughts on Sebonac and also on Pascucci.  I agree and think that it is a great thing that he has done, bringing in yet another great golf course into an area that is already full of them:  Maidstone, Atlantic, East Hampton GC to complete the list.  You failed though to mention the one key factor in Pascucci's drive to create Sebonac................money and lots of it.  Lets face it folks, the golf course is great but nothing gets accomplished without cash.  If ya got it, ya better have plenty to pass around (which he does).  I also have a dream, a dream to build the finest golf course in the world and maybe oneday I can see my dream come true.  But, until then, I am still working to earn my 2nd million dollars........

[Doug Siebert]

So I keep hearing about these tees at Sebonack and how they are going to be setting a new trend for how they are integrated into the landscape.  Anyone have any pics, or is it something that doesn't show up too well in two dimensions and has to be seen in person to be appreciated?