U.S Opens on Modern Courses

[Craig_Rokke]

Can you think of any? I can't. It's always a classic course
that's received a recent face-lift. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that, but when will a modern-era course will be selected to host our nation's championship?

I'm anxious to see Whistling Straits as a PGA venue. I believe,
however, that the next 7 or 8 Open sites are older courses.
What modern courses merit Open consideration?
What under-50 architect is most likely to have a course used? Will we see a Doak, C&C, or Gil Hanse course with throngs of spectators awaiting an exciting tournament finish?I hope so, but my guess is that it hasn't been built yet.

[Andy Hodson]

I really liked this topic and thought I'd bring it back to page 1. Any of you guys who have played some of the newer courses, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this subject, specifically:
1. Are there any newer ones, from a purely architectural perspective, that are of the caliber to hold an Open?
2. And if there are, of those, which ones could logistically host the spectacle that is now the Open?
3. Is any one, like me, itching for the USGA to break out of their traditional, habitual, rota and pick a newer, more modern site?
4. Is the PGA to be commended for thinking out of the box and holding its championship at Whistling Straits? And, finally
5. What is the one course, logistics..length..whatever else be damned, you would love to see the Open at?

[Paul Richards]

I think the PGA should be commended for bringing their Championship to Whistling Striats.  It should make for a very interesting venue.

However, I kind of side with those who believe that the US Open should be played on one of the classic courses.

[ed_getka]

I think almost any course that can be stretched to 7,400 yds (or more) could host a US Open, given the way courses are set up by the USGA. Growing up the rough, narrowing fairways, and greens stimping at 13 doesn't require much architecture. Architecture is more significant for the average golfer who has to recover somehow from missed shots. The pros simply hit to the ideal landing zone and then dial in the yardage to the preferred landing spot (below the hole) on the green. The player with the fewest misses and a hot putter wins. It is the crucible of competing against the best players in the world (with very little margin for error due to conditions) that makes the tournament interesting. That doesn't mean the architecture of the championship courses isn't good, the pros simply render it irrelevant many times.

[Matt Kardash]

I'd have to agree with Ed.....even though US Opens go to great courses, it actually wouldn't make a whole hell of a lot of a difference(in terms of scoring) if they played your local municipal hole in the ground...as long as the fairways are narrow, the rough is death, and the course is long

What's most interesting about Whistling Sraits is that the fairways are wide, theres no rough(basically it's a mine field of bunkers),the greens are huge and it's a new course....This is the antithesis of what the US Open wants, yet they were still bidding to get WS in 2005 i believe(but eventually lost out to the PGA in 2004)

[John_McMillan]

I'm not sure that I'd call Bellerive, Champions and Hazeltine classic designs (though they're starting to move a little past the "modern" label).  The USGA took some chances in the late 60s, and got burned by some of them - which I think motivated a safer criteria for the 70s, 80s and 90s selections.  Eventually, the USGA will have to hold an open on a course designed after 1970, it's just not clear which one it will be.

[JohnV]

Atlanta Athletic Club in 1976 was the most recent modern course to hold a US Open.  It was built in 1967.

I know that Pumpkin Ridge has put in a bid for the Ghost Creek Course which would be streched to over 7200 yards if they get it.  There has also been talk of a composite course taking holes from both courses.  I came up with one that was over 7500 yards that some USGA folks that was pretty good, but by the time they shortened a couple of par 5s into par 4s it would be less.

[Joel_Stewart]

I would guess that Pumpkin Ridge in Portland may get consideration because it has the all important facilities to handle the US Open.   The Open is so big now days that you almost have to have a minimum of a 3 golf course facility to support the infrastucture (parking, corporate tents, merchandise tent, television city).  Bethpage was perfect this year in that aspect and Torrey Pines will be as well.

[Paul Richards]

I used to always think Cog Hill #4 - Dubsdread would be a worthy "first" public course to host an Open.  Then I played Bethpage and knew it was a much better course than Dubs.  

However, it would have been nice for the USGA to have awarded an Open to Dubs while Mr. Jemsek was still alive ....

[A_Clay_Man]

Did yoo'all see the coverage of the SEI, today? The players were all googily about playing on a great course. I think jeffy sluman said it best when he said that evry hole need'nt be 480 yds to be considered difficult. Pat Croce was sitting there and never said a word.

[John_Conley]

Atlanta Athletic Club in 1976 was the most recent modern course to hold a US Open.  It was built in 1967.

Depends what you call Modern.  Hazeltine hosted two opens and was only about 30 years old when it had the second.

[Craig_Rokke]

The architects I mentioned have all built a number of very solid courses & I'm sure there are many fine ones to come.
I know that if I was an architect, I would view the choosing of one of my courses to host an Open as a real gratifying validation of my work. I'm not aware of any living architect
who can make that claim.

[Andy Hodson]

John
How was the USGA burned by their choices? Did they feel the courses didn't live up to Open standards? Or, as was the case with Hazeltine, the players spoke poorly of them? Or were the host sites not up to the task of logistically holding the circus? Or did they produce "bad" champions?

I guess what I'm asking is...obviously some sites are better than others, some courses better than others...but what dooms a course to be a failure as an Open venue? What would make the USGA say, "Whoa..never going there again." I know they haven't been back to Champions, yet the Tour loves to bring the Tour Championship here, and the players love the course. And Bellerive held a PGA. As has Hazeltine.

[Mike_Cirba]

Of any modern course I've seen in the southeast, the Ocean Course at Kiawah clearly has the mix of challenge, aura, intensity, space, amenities, etc., that is required to host a modern US Open.  

It would be fascinating, and could be as windily wild as Pebble is on the west coast.  Plus, the USGA wouldn't need to grow rough, shave greens, or do much else other than determine where to place the tees on a course that can be stretched to over 8,000 yards.  

Not only that, but it's about time that they take the US Open to a Pete Dye course, for crying out loud!!

[Craig_Rokke]

I agree whole-heartedly about using a Dye course, and in particular, The Ocean Course.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

hmmmmm....  All we need now is a letter-writing campaign...

[SPDB1]

For as long as I have had an interest in gca, I have believed that the US Open should visit the creme de la creme of classic pre-war architecture (to the extent feasible), and the
PGA should hold its championship on post-war "modern" courses.

This would go a long way to solving the PGA Championship's "identity crisis." and it would also place some focus on what exactly separates modern arch. from classical.

A modest proposal, I propose.

[Robert Kimball]

Mike, wouldn't that be something??!!  It would be VERY hot in June, but my concern would be can the USGA be able to get the greens as firm as they like?  Mike Vegis might be able to help on that.  
 And I don't think they would need to stretch it to 7,900 yards either.  Plenty of room for corporate hospitality, but it is tough getting into the resort!!

Of any modern course I've seen in the southeast, the Ocean Course at Kiawah clearly has the mix of challenge, aura, intensity, space, amenities, etc., that is required to host a modern US Open.  

It would be fascinating, and could be as windily wild as Pebble is on the west coast.  Plus, the USGA wouldn't need to grow rough, shave greens, or do much else other than determine where to place the tees on a course that can be stretched to over 8,000 yards.  

Not only that, but it's about time that they take the US Open to a Pete Dye course, for crying out loud!!

[David Wigler]

Mike is right, Pete Dye deserves an Open.  I would love to see one at The OCean Course, Whistling Straights, Oak Tree, or even PDGC (Although I cannot imagine 50,000 people in West Virginia).

[GeoffreyChilds]

Gotta agree with my buddy Mike Cirba.

The Ocean course has EVERYTHING it takes to host a great and memorable US Open. The USGA wouldn't have to modify the course one bit nor would they need penal rough.  The Ocean course has all the angles, strategy, visual intimidation and WIND to host a tournament of this stature. Only the weather could be a problem.

Also, I agree its time to use a Pete Dye course for an Open!

[Scott_Burroughs]

Does The Ocean Course have room for 40,000 spectators a day around the course?  The Ryder Cup only had a fraction of that.

Obviously they'd have to be bused in.  And where would all of the corporate tents be put?  On the Bagger Vance hole?  I wouldn't think much construction would be allowed around the course (this means the massive spectator stands as well).

[WilliamWang]

scott - mike vegis answered that in a thread i posted way back when.  he said if i remember that the ryder cup had 25,000 per day and that the usga was shooting for 30,000 per day as optimal.  pinehurst had 40,000 by comparison.

here it is copied

"Here's a copy of a post I made a while back on the subject...:

We've spoken to some USGA people and they say that at Pinehurst, they had 40,000 people.  At Oakmont, they had 24,000 people.  They think that 30,000 is ideal.  We had 25,000 at the Ryder Cup with limited grand stands.  Put a few more out and we could handle the crowds.  Cougar Island (owned by Kiawah Development Partners-the island's real estate company) is just across the entrance from The Ocean Course with hundreds of acres that could be prepared for 1) hospitality tents and 2) additional parking (with KDP cooperation).  We also have the old Bagger Vance hole for hospitality tenting.  During the Ryder Cup, we had off-island parking with buses bringing people in.  Our new 255 room luxury hotel near Turtle Point will be completed in Feburary of 2004.  The Charleston Metro area has over 16,500 lodging rooms in addition to ours.  All in all, we think we have the logistics to hold such an event.

And, when we redo the clubhouse out there in a couple of years, we're looking into the possibility of having some small bungelows out there near the 1st tee where people can stay.  I'm sure, if we ever have The Open, they'd be used for hospitality... "

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

I was wrong.  The Charleston Metro area has almost 30,000 rooms for lodging... .  Plus we are only 2 hours from Hilton Head and Myrtle Beach with all of their lodging.

The Bagger Vance hole is no more...  That will be the driving range when the new clubhouse is built.  We now have some hospitality staging area between the current clubhouse and the first tee.  We could conceivably have hospitality down the middle of the back nine (with 10-13 on one side and 15-18 on the other...) as well.  

During the Ryder Cup there was no bleachers at all on the course, only behind the driving range...

[Tony Ristola]

Isn't the USGA considering a brand spanking new course for 2008...the 7,607 yards Torrey Pines?

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

What are the cons of the Ocean Course?

Southern Hills is certainly as hot as Kiawah in June.

What would they realistically play the Open at, distance wise?  7,500 would have to be max, given the possibility of wind, no?

It just seems like an ideal choice and would fill the southeast void for the USGA.