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Matt_Ward

When Short Works -- Devils Knob / Wintergreen
« on: September 25, 2006, 05:53:58 PM »
One of the courses I visited during a 10-day adventure to select states in the southern area included a visit to Wintergreen Resort located in Wintergreen, VA -- a full scale facility that sits on the eastern rim of the Blue Ridge Mountains and is roughly 20-30 minutes from Charlottesville.

The layout touts 45 holes -- 27 from Rees Jones which all sit in the valley area -- about a 15-20 minute drive from the original 18 which sits at 3,850 feet -- the highest course in Virginia.

Designed 30 years ago by the late Ellis Maples -- Devils Knob is an interesting layout that demonstrates the meaningfulness of shot control throughout the round.

What's so fascinating about Devils Knob is that the course is set at an elevation where weather can be quite changeable. Temperatures also can be 15-20 degrees cooler than the valley floor.

More importantly, Devils Knob doesn't rely upon insane length or inordinate demands that can't be handled by the masses.

The course plays from the tips 6,382 yards. That's no misprint.

The par is 70 with the back tees sloping at 138 and the CR from the same measurements coming in at 72.2.

How many courses does one know have such a short distance and nearly slope out at 140? Ditto have a CR that's a full 2.2 strokes above par?

One of the more successful design elements at Devils Knob is that it takes wooded areas and carves them out to be very natural settings for holes.

Maples, to his considerable credit, makes the player work the ball at a 30-to-45 degree turn points on any number of the holes there. The longer hitters can only gain maximum advantage with their power when they properly turn the ball in the correct manner as called upon. Fail to do that and the likelihood in sending your ball through the fairways and into oblivion is quite certain.

The real strength of Devils Knob rests with the variety of par-4 type holes Maples has created.

I am a big fan of the downhill dog-leg right 3rd hole which plays 476 yards. Here the golfer must work the ball to the right but you cannot overcook it to that side. The fairway cascades down the hill but it does have the slightest movement to the left so that any ball with a pronounced hook spin will only finish deeper into the woods on that side.

On the short par-4 holes Maples used the up and down property to create a varied series of challenges. For example, although there are holes with yardages of 382 (twice), 376, 347, 360 and 367 -- they each play very differently and give a much varying style in how they play. Too often uphill holes are avoided because they can easily slow down the pace of play and be slogs. That's far from the case here.

The 376-yard uphill 9th hole is a gem. You must deal with an elevation change of roughly 40-50 feet off the tee and the hole also bends slightly to the right. The green is neatly elevated and the fall-offs to the sides of the target will carry away any approach not deftly played.

The only serious deficiency with the course comes with the five par-3 holes. They are simply pedestian in their quality and frankly I would think that such a "short" course would excel in these types of holes.

Devils Knob has some interesting highlights -- the elevation sign at the par-3 15th tells you the height of 3,850 feet. You also have a closing hole that brings your round to a grand conclusion. It's a downhill dog-leg right with an inside fairway bunker guarding the preferred playing position. Power players can blow it over the bunker with a solid hit but if you should hit the ball with any movement to the left it's verty easy to bound away and reach the timber on the far side.

Devils Knob is an interesting layout and one that for me, at least, would require several rounds in order to really have a clear handle on what's needed.

Like I said -- for a course that's under 6,400 yards from the dead back tees -- it provides plenty of challenges for just about level of golfer and is a credit to the design talent Ellis Maples clearly possessed.

P.S. The course is also a rare bird in that all three of the par-5 holes are well done. The uphill 5th plays 473 yards but is every yard and then some to a very tiny target. The uphill dog-leg left 582-yd 7th hole is one of the best par-5 holes I have played in the Commonwealth of Virginia among public courses. The hole climbs roughly 50 feet from tee to green and you also face a very daunting fairway bunker and creek that guards the entrance to the putting surface.

The downhill 10th at 567 yards also moves to the right off the tee and has a stream that cuts in front of the green roughly 100 yards from the putting surface.

Like I said -- big hitters cannot succeed from just power alone. Thinking and placement are what makes Devils Knob a very relevant and worthy place to play.






Mike_Cirba

Re:When Short Works -- Devils Knob / Wintergreen
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2006, 06:02:52 PM »
Matt,

You could have just described Woodloch Springs in the Poconos, which at 6500 yards has a slope rating of 143.

Have you played it?

http://www.golfti.com/woodloch/golf.htm

Matt_Ward

Re:When Short Works -- Devils Knob / Wintergreen
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2006, 06:33:42 PM »
Mike:

Keep in mind that Woodloch is nearly 6,600 yards -- Devils Knob is nearly 200 yards less in overall distance. You also have Woodloch coming in at a par-72 to Devils Knob being a 70.

Woodloch Spring is a fine place but the designer sought to introduce "forced lay-ups" in a few spots, if memory servces, which are clearly an artifice that doesn't appeal to me. The par-5 3rd is clearly an over-the-top production from man's hands and while challenging doesn't produce serious compelling arhitecture of the first order for me. The 7th hole follows another par-5 "forced-layup dimension that effectively narrows the options players can entertain. Check out the same element at the uphill 10th hole there too. I don't mind seeing one design theme presented -- going back to it time after time is quite another thing don't you think ?

The best par-5 at Woodloch is easily among my best par-5 public holes for all of the Keystone State. It's a absolute solid hole and frankly I wonder why the others could not have been modeled after it.

On the par-4 side there are plenty of simply Ok type holes there. The downhill 13th at 352 yards could have been something more special than the garden variety of grip and rip. If I can recall a few others I can post as well.

Maples took a very demanding site at Devils Knob and through a very sensible routing never takes the club out of the golfer's hands through any sort of design product that is clearly a gimmick or forced intriusion. I never felt like I was playing some over-the-top production when at Devils Knob. The routing fits quite well there.

The one clear plus I will give Woodloch Springs is the better finishing stretch of holes. The par-4 16th and 18th holes are both well done and quite unique in what they require.

Mike -- I do like Woodloch Springs because it is so refrshing given the low level public stuff that far too often dots the Keystone landscape. Unfortunately, both of these layouts have par-3 holes which are simply mediocre at best and that's hard to understand given the fact that many times short courses have the better par-3 holes than the longer layouts encountered.

ChasLawler

Re:When Short Works -- Devils Knob / Wintergreen
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2006, 08:13:46 PM »
Matt,
While I wouldn't go as far as to say I don"t like Devil's Knob, I must say that I don't agree that it's that playable for the average 15 handicap and higher.

The reason it can't be overpowered by the long hitter is the same reason high handicappers struggle there. There is no forgiveness in the woods that border every hole. Shots hit just marginally offline on most holes are lost.

I've played a number of rounds at DK with a variety of playing partners, and everyone has struggled with lost balls.

I agree that it has a number of very good holes and can certainly challenge the best players, but it's a bit too penal IMO for the average golfer...especially for a resort course.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When Short Works -- Devils Knob / Wintergreen
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2006, 08:17:33 PM »
...There is no forgiveness in the woods that border every hole. Shots hit just marginally offline on most holes are lost.
...
Sounds like a Doak 0 to me.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When Short Works -- Devils Knob / Wintergreen
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2006, 08:20:19 PM »
Matt, it has been a number of years since I played Devil's Knob so I only have impressions as memories.  What I did remember is that I didn't like the course at all.  It seemed to have been designed on ground that was not meant for golf.  If you are off line finding the ball was almost impossible.
It does require good course management, but if I had to play it everyday I'd give up golf.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mike_Cirba

Re:When Short Works -- Devils Knob / Wintergreen
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2006, 08:21:40 PM »
Matt,

Overall, I'd agree with your assessment of Woodloch Springs.  While there are some very cool and almost original holes, it does force a lot of shots that don't offer much in the way of strategic decision-making.

It's also tough as bricks for the high-handicapper, but there's something appealing I find in the course, with some of the same attraction as a roller-coaster in an amusement park.   You know you're going to scream and it's going to be bouncy, but there are a number of thrills.

Matt_Ward

Re:When Short Works -- Devils Knob / Wintergreen
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2006, 10:45:20 AM »
A few rebuttals to offer.

The problem many people today have with such courses as Devils Knob is that they fail to take their individual games and adjust them to the course they are playing.

If you get people who think they are simply going to wind up and pound away with the big stick and think there will be no issues with mishits and the like then they are surely barking up the wrong tree there (no pun intended).

Unfortunately, too many people automatically assume that all resort golf needs to be your formulaic Florida style golf with ample fairways and the tired bunker flanking bunker pattern with big disc saucer-shaped putting surfaces.

Devils Knob is no doubt on some very challenging terrain. However, if challenging terrain is to be thought of as counter-procutive to quality golf design then you might as well disgard plenty of other well-received layouts with such land forms.

Tommy W:

I agree the terrain is demanding -- but let's not forget the fact that we are speaking about a course FROM THE TIPS is under 6,400 yards. My God -- in this day ane age that is unheard of for a golf course today.

Tommy, the thought about playing Devils Knob is in ACCEPTING what the course allows you to do from a shotmaking perspective. Too many golfers simply believe they can play golf at all courses in the same manner. You know, as well as I, that that doesn't happen. Simply look at the nature of links golf versus American point-to-point golf as a good example.

Cabell A:

The issue for the 15-handicapper is that too many think like 30-handicappers and don't adjust accordingly. I watched countless 15 handicap type golfers play the course and each of them refused to budge from simply whipping out their drivers and pounding away.

The net result ?

Plenty of frustration as they encountered the trouble that Ellis Maples wisely included and that Wintergreen Resort has wisely kept.

I don't doubt recoveries can be quite demanding but here again you have 15-handicap type golfers who when they get in trouble simply refuse to take their medicine and decide to shoot for the green in situations even Tiger himself would not attempt. Guess what happens when they happens.

These "smart" golfers get even dumber and the scores start to mount.

Cabell, what makes Devils Knob so fascinating is that the weather can be so vexing at the top of the mountain and the fact that you must work the ball accordingly.

Now, if Devils Knob were in the 7,000-yard range and still featured the nature of what the terrain plays like today I could see the merits of your comments. The greatness of Devils Knob is that it goes beyond the tired mundane nature of typical resort courses. And, since the overall length is still below 6,400 yards I see no reason to view the course in strictly penal like terms.

Mike C:

I have played Woodloch Springs no less than half a dozen times since it opened and like yourself I do enjoy the layout. In many ways it's remote location has sort of minimized the overall exposure the course should receive.

Forgive me in not IDing previously -- the par-5 14th as one of the best public par-5 holes I have played in Pennsy public golf. Truly some hole. Now, if the strategic elements could be more consistent throughout the course -- as well as what you see with the par-4 16th and 18th holes -- then Woodloch would be even more compelling from a design meter.

Unfortunately, when you have rather severe sites the architect must make compromises and often times demanding holes may not necessarily be compelling -- in some cases they can be even contrived with man's hand overwhelming the canvass -- I see that with the par-5 3rd & 7th holes, to name just two examples.

What's kind of unique Mike is that often times it's the totality of the par-3 holes which really is well done with such sites because the architect can "fit" such holes into the landscape easier than having to deal with the long and complex nature of many par-5 holes.

I would certainly put Woodloch Springs on the short list of courses that work even with the absence of overall length.


ChasLawler

Re:When Short Works -- Devils Knob / Wintergreen
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2006, 12:24:29 PM »
Quote
The issue for the 15-handicapper is that too many think like 30-handicappers and don't adjust accordingly. I watched countless 15 handicap type golfers play the course and each of them refused to budge from simply whipping out their drivers and pounding away.

I hear what you're saying, but even if the average player hits 3-iron off the tee on every hole, it's very likely at least a few tee shots will find the woods. The hole corridors are THAT narrow and unforgiving.

Quote
I don't doubt recoveries can be quite demanding but here again you have 15-handicap type golfers who when they get in trouble simply refuse to take their medicine and decide to shoot for the green in situations even Tiger himself would not attempt. Guess what happens when they[sic] happens.

What recoveries? When you hit the ball offline, it is most likely lost. If you happen to find it, you're lucky if you can even get it back into the playing corridor.



Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When Short Works -- Devils Knob / Wintergreen
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2006, 02:15:22 PM »
A few rebuttals to offer.

The problem many people today have with such courses as Devils Knob is that they fail to take their individual games and adjust them to the course they are playing.

If you get people who think they are simply going to wind up and pound away with the big stick and think there will be no issues with mishits and the like then they are surely barking up the wrong tree there (no pun intended).
...

Typical scratch golfer BS. Assume the high handicapper is a moron because he hits it into the trees.

I've got news for you Matt Ward. The high handicapper is perfectly capable of hitting the ball out of play with a wedge! Would you prefer we putter around? Pun intended.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When Short Works -- Devils Knob / Wintergreen
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2006, 03:18:26 PM »
Maples, to his considerable credit, makes the player work the ball at a 30-to-45 degree turn points on any number of the holes there. The longer hitters can only gain maximum advantage with their power when they properly turn the ball in the correct manner as called upon. Fail to do that and the likelihood in sending your ball through the fairways and into oblivion is quite certain.


Matt,

I commend you on liking a 6,300 yard course :o. However, do you really want to give Maples "credit" for the doglegs you mention above? Sounds like a lot of "forced layups" to me...

Twitter: @Deneuchre

Greg Holland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When Short Works -- Devils Knob / Wintergreen
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2006, 05:12:39 PM »
I liked Devil's Knob.  I spent a weekend at Wintergreen.  We played golf 3 times -- my foursome consisted of three 15 handicappers and a 20 handicapper.  We played Devils Knob, then Stoney Creek and had our choice for the third round.  Everyone in the group very much wanted to play Devils Knob again, and preferred it to the other course.  My non-GCA type buddies said it felt like a "classic old course," and they thought it was much more scenic and just more fun (though challenging).  While we all lost some balls, none of us scored significantly off of our handicap.  

Also, as with other Maples courses I have played, the greens had some great false fronts and internal contours -- No. 9 in particular had some major undulations.

Matt_Ward

Re:When Short Works -- Devils Knob / Wintergreen
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2006, 05:27:59 PM »
Doug:

Quite the contrary good buddy. I personally believe you would be a big fan of the course because power alone cannot bring the course down.

Maples does allow room for the big stick if players wish to push the envelope. The landing areas are also quite wide -- far from the bowling alley criticisms that certain people have mentioned.

The key is in knowing your strengths and adapting to what Maples requires throughout the round.

I do agree with Greg H that the Maples design at Devils Knob is quite challenging but not in a heavy handed fashion with inane bunkers that clog sight lines or with an overdose of H20 as seen on so many resort courses for the "eye" effect.

In regards to recoveries there's opportunity to get "back into play" if one hits a wayward tee shot. Frankly, you have more room at Devils Knob for such foul ball shots then you would get at say the Dunluce Course at Royal Portrush which is clogged with hay-like rough just off many of the fairways.

Garland:

Help me to understand something.

Have you played Devils Knob golf course?

I played with a number of 15-20 handicap types and to a man they preferred the challenges Maples presents and mirror what Greg H said in his post. There's sufficient room and given the shortage of length I found what Maples has done there is completely appropriate.
 
Cabell A:

Let's be a bit more forthcoming -- if you have a high handicap type who is playing "military golf" (left / right, right / left) the issue of whether they play Devils Knob or any other "resort" course will not matter one iota.

There's room for recoveries -- if you happen to hit a tee shot that flies two fairways over -- you're right then -- the opportunity for recovery is deader than Elvis -- as it should be IMHO.

Tom Huckaby

Re:When Short Works -- Devils Knob / Wintergreen
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2006, 05:36:25 PM »
Matt:

I'm generally not that big of a fan of high course ratings and I am definitely not a fan of high slopes, but that course does sound intriguing.  I'm just curious how the heck they pull this off and then ALSO allow wayward shots to get back in play.  It sure seems like a course that short with that high of numbers would also have to be VERY penal.  If it's not, then this course does sound very cool.

I ask primarily because one of the worst courses I have ever seen is also low yardage, high rating, high slope.  It's just plain awful - The Ranch at Silver Creek - San Jose, CA.  Abnd it's numbers are very similar to the course you mention...

Black           72        72.9     152      6372
Blue             72        71.3     147      5956
White           70        68.9     139      5391


« Last Edit: September 26, 2006, 05:37:28 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Matt_Ward

Re:When Short Works -- Devils Knob / Wintergreen
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2006, 05:49:11 PM »
Huck:

Yes, you're right but I don't see the penal elements you mentioned. As I said before -- there are too many people who can't manage their games when playing certain courses.

They simply HAVE to unwind and hit the big stick. The biggest joke is the clowns who come to short par-4's and believe they can reach the green in one big blow. This is the same mentality of those who hit the casinos and think they are only one card or one spin of the wheel from hitting it big.

What would make Devils Knob play in the same manner as the course you indicated from San Jose would be if the greens were contoured excessively and if the ground was so dry as balls would simply not stop and bound forever. That doesn't happen there.

It's certainly worth a look if you ever hit the Charlottesville area in Virginia.

Tom Huckaby

Re:When Short Works -- Devils Knob / Wintergreen
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2006, 05:54:33 PM »
AHA!

You nailed this one Matt - well done.  What truly does put the San Jose course over the top is that along with the penal attributes tee to green, the green surfaces themselves are ridiculously contoured to the extent of absurdity.  

THus it does seem like Devil's Knob works... thanks!

TH

Matt_Ward

Re:When Short Works -- Devils Knob / Wintergreen
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2006, 05:58:15 PM »
Huck:

I'm so happy you finally agree with me. ;D

P.S. Just a quick question on the San Jose layout -- are the greens there quite small. Combined with excessive contours can make such a layout a near impossibility.

Thanks ...

Tom Huckaby

Re:When Short Works -- Devils Knob / Wintergreen
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2006, 06:04:22 PM »
Huck:

I'm so happy you finally agree with me. ;D

P.S. Just a quick question on the San Jose layout -- are the greens there quite small. Combined with excessive contours can make such a layout a near impossibility.

Thanks ...

Matt, hey, I agree more than I disagree.  I just tend to post more when it's the latter.  The former is boring.   ;D ;D

Re THE RANCH, some greens are on the small side, but it's more the accumulation of everything that makes it so undoable.  You can lose a ball on both sides of very shot... so you'd think one might get a break on the greens.  One doesn't.  And one sure doesn't need all the contour to add any interest!

TH

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