The Pat Mucci Skyline Green

[SPDB]

I present to you, finally, and now incontrovertably, Pat Mucci's skyline green, the 5th at The Creek.

It's time to pay the piper.  

[Dave Bourgeois]

Remind me what's behind those trees.

[SPDB]

Dave -
More trees, and a driveway. But what's important is what's in front of them....a green.

[Bill_McBride]

A good crew of woodcutters and a few sharp chain saws - voila, skyline green!

[TEPaul]

I just love skyline greens and there's no question at all that Creek's 5th has the potential to be an awesome skyline green (or partially so). But I draw the line on a potential skyline green thusly----eg was it EVER or was it originally a skyline green or intended to be by its architect?

There is no question at all that Creek's 5th was not!

Those trees behind that green are a whole lot older than that green and that golf course.  

If Macdonald wanted to take those trees down he probably would've recommended it. He was not just the architect of The Creek (with Raynor) but was a most important man at that club from its beginning through the 1920s and into the 1930s. Macdonald was the original president of the Kellenworth Corporation that owned The Creek Club.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Why the need to present a photo from the right of the green ?

Why not show a photo from the left side of the fairway/green, or would that reveal a skyline green except for a lone tree ?

Do you also feel that 81 years of growth might have altered the backdrop ?

TEPaul,

It wouldn't matter if the trees were older than the hole, what matters is their height when the hole was built.

As you know, the land falls off precipitously behind that green, well over 50 feet, quickly.   When one considers that the green is elevated above the fairway/DZ that elevates the line of sight at the rear of the green, above the horizon.

George Holland has indicated that CBM was restrained by the Board with respect to things he wanted to do, and tree removal may have been one of them.

When George gets the archives colated and published, perhaps we'll find out more.

[HamiltonBHearst]

Never knew this hole was such a dogleg left  Where was this picture taken from between the oaks on the entrance drive?

I'll go with Pat's eyes on this one rather than an intentionally deceitful picture that just seeks to cloud the issue.

[Mark_Fine]

Here is a photo of a skyline green being built at one of our projects.  The center of the green is to the right of the worker.  The backdrop goes on forever.  

[Joe Hancock]

What I "think" I can tell from the picture:

1) The turf nearest the lens of the camera appears to be fairway, indicating an intent for the hole to be played from that direction in some cases.

2) there is a very large tree in the very right of the frame that would still prevent this green from being a skyline green when approached from left of this viewpoint.

3) Location of the fronting bunker and the general slope of the green iondicates an approach from the right may be preferential.

4) No sign of shade from oaks near said entrance driveway. Also note that the sun is shining, which would be conducive to shade under trees.

5) No signs of clouds, nor signs of any issue.

Joe

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

#3 at Fishers Island and #10 at Wilmington CC (North) are two of my favorite skyline greens.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Westchester had two skyline greens on holes # 12 & # 13 that had pines planted behind them.

Removing those pines would restore the skyline affect and make both holes more visually difficult.

Google Earth provides a good view of # 5 at The Creek and it provides rough elevations as well.  The 5th green is about 130 feet above the 10th fairway.  # 7 could be a skyline green as well.

[Rick Shefchik]

Just got back from Sutton Bay, featuring two of my favorite skyline greens. No "deceitful" photography possible here, because there are no trees:

[TEPaul]

Pat:

The trees behind #5 at The Creek were there and very visible for quite some time before that course was built. Matter of fact, the earliest aerial of the golf course shows trees basically surrounding that green behind and to the right. To the left of the green was a formal garden (now tennis courts) on the six hundred acre estate of Paul Cravath known as Veraton. The enormous house of Veraton centered right where the flagpole is today which centers directly at the end of the seventeen hundred foot long driveway lined with linden trees.

Macdonald did have issues with the club, particularly with one Herbert Dean over the issue of the so-called "water holes" and what to do to fix them. Eventually that cost the club over $100,000 toward the end of the 1920s to fix. I wouldn't exactly say the board restrained Macdonald----it was more a matter of Macdonald eventually apparently getting pissed and resigning.

Macdonald did make a number of recommendations in the years following the opening of the course and one of those ideas on #5 was to put a bunker, perhaps a "Principle's Nose"  in the middle of that fairway. This is something being considered and in my opinion it would be an excellent addition to that hole.

As far as turning the 5th green into a skyline green by removing all the trees behind it, that just isn't going to happen even though if it could, I agree with you, it would be some awesome situation for golfers approaching that green.

The most interesting thing about that green is it is so low profile anyway one needs to hit a drive within about 100-120 yards of it to be able to even see the green surface.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:


Macdonald did make a number of recommendations in the years following the opening of the course and one of those ideas on #5 was to put a bunker, perhaps a "Principle's Nose"  in the middle of that fairway.

This is something being considered and in my opinion it would be an excellent addition to that hole.

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The most interesting thing about that green is it is so low profile anyway one needs to hit a drive within about 100-120 yards of it to be able to even see the green surface.

TEPaul,

Don't you find the above two paragraphs to be in conflict ?

Why would you need a principal's nose bunker complex when, as you state, the green surface isn't visible until you get to within 100-120 yards from the green ?

Isn't one of the features of the principal's nose complex to obscure the green surface ?

If it's already obscured, why the need for redundancy  ?

Isn't their a pseudo or hybrid principal's nose complex in the fairway at  # 15 ?

On the other hand, it is interesting to note the Redan green on # 1 and the reverse Redan green on # 8, so perhaps CBM was into double dipping, especially at the beach cabanas  

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I can hardly believe you ask those series of questions.

Let me amend that---I guess I can believe that YOU would ask such things.

Those questions connote a real failure to understand some of the fundamental concepts of golf course architecture such as risk and reward.

That fairway is very big and very wide.

So let me ask you----what risk does one take the way it is now in hitting a driver as far as one can to get into an area of visiblity of that green surface?

But put a rather small Priniciple's Nose bunker perhaps in the middle right around that area where the green surface comes into view and there is some risk to deal with on that big wide open fairway for the reward of getting into view of that green.

Are you beginning to understand some of the basics of architectural risk/reward concept now?  

Max Behr even had a name for this basic risk/reward concept. He called it the "Line of Charm" which meant put some obstacle feature in the "Line of Instinct" and you create "lines of charm" such as before it, right of it, left of it, or perhaps over it.  

That's a bit more interesting, thought-provoking and challenging than just blasting a driver out into the middle of a great big wide open fairway, don't you think Kemosabe? Apparently C.B Macdonald thought so, and so do I, but it doesn't surprise me at all that a backward Indian like you thinks its somehow redundant. Redundant with what on that hole?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

You can't ignore the issue of redundancy.

How many Principal's Nose features can you insert on a golf course ?

Remember too, that that fairway ascends away from the golfer making the hole play longer, and there were already left side fairway bunkers in the DZ, with a huge wrap-around left side green bunker and a very large right side green bunker both guarding the green.  Thus, the right center of the fairway was the prefered angle to come into the green from, yet, you champion a Principal's Nose bunker in this general area.

Principal's Nose bunker complexes are usually within 80 yards of the green.  Placing one 120 yards from the green would seem to be a departure from the norm and probably make the hole play more like a "bottle"  hole, which I don't believe was CBM's intent.

The next time I'm in Southampton, I'll stop by and ask him.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,

You can't ignore the issue of redundancy.

How many Principal's Nose features can you insert on a golf course ?"

Well, then Pat, when you're out in Southampton why don't you ask Macdonald why he built one on The Creek's #15 and then later recommended another one on The Creek?  

Actually, I probably shouldn't admit this on a family website like GOLFCLUBATLAS.com but he didn't recommend another Principles Nose bunker on #5, he recommended another one on #3. What he recommended on #5 was what he called a "Mrs Grundy's LEFT TIT" bunker right in the area I've mentioned but I didn't want to mention that on here but you've forced me to.

I suspect at that time of C.B.'s life he was getting really rammy and weird and had probably had enough of those beautiful show girls he kept stashed in his "Hen House" on his estate in Southampton and he'd decided to get into something more kinky like Mrs Grundy's left tit and somehow it slipped out in his bunker recommendations to The Creek.

Do you wonder why he began to run afoul of Herbert Dean and the Board of The Creek?

Not much later than that C.B tried to put a move on Marion Hollins when he was helping her with the Womens National G.C. that eventually merged with the Creek. Apparently Marion who was a lot bigger than C.B. cold cocked him and told him she wasn't that kind of girl at all----if you get my drift.

As you may know that gay blade Devie Emmett (The Cat in the Hat) who was the nominal architect of Women's National was observing all this stuff between Macdonald and Hollins and he proclaimed that all this was giving him some great architectural ideas. I believe Devie tried to pinch C.B.'s ass but luckily, as it is told, C.B didn't notice and didn't feel it.

I've also uncovered some reliable info that Marion hired Devie to do the Womens National because she felt that Devie had some real sensibilities of a women golfer and perhaps she was entertaining the idea of making him her wife thinking a person who looked like him couldn't possibily actually be a man.