Ryder Cup: Is it the same deal...

[Mike_Sweeney]

as when the US basketball team gets whooped by Greece?

Basketball was started in Springfield, Massachusetts, golf in Scotland/Europe, so I would say that basketball is far worse, and while the talent in international basketball is spread out now, there is no doubt who has the most talent.

If they start kickin our butts in American football, then we are in real trouble.

Not sure about baseball as there is no real world series.

[Nick Pozaric]

as when the US basketball team gets whooped by Greece?

Basketball was started in Springfield, Massachusetts, golf in Scotland/Europe, so I would say that basketball is far worse, and while the talent in international basketball is spread out now, there is no doubt who has the most talent.

If they start kickin our butts in American football, then we are in real trouble.

Not sure about baseball as there is no real world series.

Little League World Series

[Anthony Butler]

I think it's something bigger.

I see one of two things going on.  

1.  Take yourself back in history.  Imagine what it must have been like 50 or 100 years ago.  I have the sense that it must have been pretty damn intimidating to do anything against a competent American at anything over the last century.  Taking things in the largest of contexts, America has been pretty damn intimidating in pretty much everything we do for a while.  What a national swagger we have had after becoming the world's industrial power in just a couple of generations, saving the world militarily a couple of times, sending a guy to the moon, becoming the world's primary media and entertainment source, ending communism, etc.  I can honestly feel for a sportsman or businessman from another country during most of the 20th century -- and can't blame him a bit for feeling just a litle bit like he's David against Goliath over the last century, or fearing getting steamrolled.  Of course, that little bit of fear is all it takes TO get steamrolled.  

It seems to me, though, that what has been called "the American century" has been over for about a decade or so, and will permanently stay so.  Datacenters are in India now, the Japanese - bored with kicking our asses at car making from afar - are making their cars here now and are still better at it, and oddly-named sheepskin boots from Australia can sell by the millions through the internet here.  And I didn't even mention China.

Maybe the rest of the world just might not be as in awe of us as they may have been when we were basically kicking ass at every doggone thing we tried like we used to.  Perhaps the lack of intimidation is catching up in the world of sports.  Perhaps the swagger of "America the Perfect" has simply come to an end.  

2.  If you don't buy the "this is the end of American domination of the world in everything, so just get used to it" theory, then try this one on:

Everyone says we're losing because the Americans are independent contractors and can't play as a team.  I have another theory:  maybe the Europeans just can't play for money!  Maybe they just don't care as much about money as their American counterparts (which, as an aside, could very well be either a cause or an effect of theory #1 above).  

Maybe the Euros are simply wired not to care about winning money individually, but when they're just playing golf, the game, rather than golf, the capitalist endevour, they're in their wheelhouse.

Just a thought.

Or two.

A couple thoughts on your thoughts:

1) Maybe the rest of the world has never been in awe of the US as much as the US was in awe of itself... my sense is that the US, certainly as a country, was pretty much on the nose after Vietnam. The brands and businesses are what people admire and like about America.

2) I'm not sure what the money effect is. None of these guys are exactly playing for next month's rent.

[David Stamm]

Hey Anthony. Hints of racisim?? Why, because he he happened to cite basketball and the Celtics? PPUUHHLLEEZZ!!! ALL of American sports has evolved into showboating. And you have no clue if MJ, Magic or Bird would've done any better. Some are born to play and some are born to teach. And just as a side note, I included Bird in there because I didn't want you make the mistake that I'm "racist". Me being a stupid white man!!!

[peter_p]

The PGA Tour is supposed to be the best, but that is only because it has the biggest purses. I'd say the Tour should relax its restrictions on its' members playing elsewhere.
How many Europeans play here? How many Americans play ouside the US?
Maybe its time to return to the US vs GB&I format, or let us expand to North America. I agree that Tiger and Phil are not leaders the others will rally behind. I'm only going on what I've read, but how many real friendships do they have on tour.
Is it the same on the European tour?
Maybe the advertisers know something. We've seen Tiger, Sergio, Scott, Baddeley, Els etc. because their names sell products and they're open people. These guys may be good, but they don't resonate among the public. The Tour PR people, if they have any, need to get to work.
 

[Anthony Butler]

I think it's something bigger.

I see one of two things going on.  

1.  Take yourself back in history.  Imagine what it must have been like 50 or 100 years ago.  I have the sense that it must have been pretty damn intimidating to do anything against a competent American at anything over the last century.  Taking things in the largest of contexts, America has been pretty damn intimidating in pretty much everything we do for a while.  What a national swagger we have had after becoming the world's industrial power in just a couple of generations, saving the world militarily a couple of times, sending a guy to the moon, becoming the world's primary media and entertainment source, ending communism, etc.  I can honestly feel for a sportsman or businessman from another country during most of the 20th century -- and can't blame him a bit for feeling just a litle bit like he's David against Goliath over the last century, or fearing getting steamrolled.  Of course, that little bit of fear is all it takes TO get steamrolled.  

It seems to me, though, that what has been called "the American century" has been over for about a decade or so, and will permanently stay so.  Datacenters are in India now, the Japanese - bored with kicking our asses at car making from afar - are making their cars here now and are still better at it, and oddly-named sheepskin boots from Australia can sell by the millions through the internet here.  And I didn't even mention China.

Maybe the rest of the world just might not be as in awe of us as they may have been when we were basically kicking ass at every doggone thing we tried like we used to.  Perhaps the lack of intimidation is catching up in the world of sports.  Perhaps the swagger of "America the Perfect" has simply come to an end.  

2.  If you don't buy the "this is the end of American domination of the world in everything, so just get used to it" theory, then try this one on:

Everyone says we're losing because the Americans are independent contractors and can't play as a team.  I have another theory:  maybe the Europeans just can't play for money!  Maybe they just don't care as much about money as their American counterparts (which, as an aside, could very well be either a cause or an effect of theory #1 above).  

Maybe the Euros are simply wired not to care about winning money individually, but when they're just playing golf, the game, rather than golf, the capitalist endevour, they're in their wheelhouse.

Just a thought.

Or two.

A couple thoughts on your thoughts:

1) Maybe the rest of the world has never been in awe of the US as much as the US was in awe of itself... my sense is that the US, certainly as a country, was pretty much on the nose after Vietnam. The brands and businesses are what people admire and like about America.

2) I'm not sure what the money effect is. None of these guys are exactly playing for next month's rent.

Anthony, to be perfectly candid, if people weren't in complete awe of what happened in, to and because of this country for roughly the 100 years following the Industrial Revolution, then they simply weren't paying attention.  

Although it's easy to chastize America for being in awe of itself, I think that the more accurate target of chastizing would be someone whose limited knowledge of history caused them not to be in awe of what America did during that period of history.    

Shivas, I'm not sure what your definition of Industrial Revolution is but according to Wikipedia the first one was over by around 1830. Even the so-called second revolution was pretty much done just after the end of the Civil War (then as now, war was a huge source of money to the robber-barons of this country). Funnily enough, the end of the Vietnam War was about a century away... and btw, I never said that America's impact on the world during this century wasn't generally positive. I just don't think it's helpful if an entire country of people walks around under the impression they invented democracy (Rome, England and France all got there first), cars (That's how Gottleib Daimler 'rolled' about a decade before Henry Ford), and TV (John Logie Baird was Scottish).

I think you might also be surprised by the percentage of people who don't post on GCA.com who think golf was invented here....

[Anthony Butler]

Hey Anthony. Hints of racisim?? Why, because he he happened to cite basketball and the Celtics? PPUUHHLLEEZZ!!! ALL of American sports has evolved into showboating. And you have no clue if MJ, Magic or Bird would've done any better. Some are born to play and some are born to teach. And just as a side note, I included Bird in there because I didn't want you make the mistake that I'm "racist". Me being a stupid white man!!!

Our basketball players are showboating individualists.  I'd rather play the #1 college team during the Olympic year, more of them might stay in school.  Its too bad the Celtic basketball style was replaced by street ball.

On reflection, hints of racism is not stong enough... I showed the above quote to my wife (American citizen) and she was appalled that I would be posting to a board where people would defend these kinds of statements.

Also, why would a 'showboating individualists' want to play another year for free just so they could participate in the Olympics?  Not when you could be out 'ballin' for cash money, fool!


And, BTW, I mentioned Bird in my original post, so there's no diversity points there. The reason I included those three is because team play is not something that is divided by racial or national origins. You're either that kind of player or not, and you need one of these guys on the floor taking charge when things get tight.

[Jesse Jones]

Hmmmm.. I'm suddenly learning a lot about the type of people who are on GCA..

[Matt_Cohn]

Everyone has a theory, and here's mine.

The Americans tried - desperately! - to assume the role of underdogs. Even Tiger Woods claimed that "We're definitely the underdogs." And on paper, it was true.

But look a little closer. Since when do *real* underdogs try so hard to convince everybody that they're underdogs? Real underdogs don't have to talk themselves, or anybody else, into it.

I don't think that American teams are capable of being legitimate underdogs. They may be unlikely to win the competition, as was the case this weekend. But as far as authentically believing that they're the little guys, that nobody believes they can do it, that they have nothing to lose, that all the pressure is on everybody else...

...No way. It's just not part of the American psyche. This is America we're talking about, the ultimate "overdog". Big, powerful, America, with the huge economy, the world's most powerful military, the biggest and best of everything.

Underdogs?

Maybe on paper, but definitely not deep down inside where it counts. You can see it in our other sports teams, too. How many of you think our World Cup soccer team really acted like they had nothing to lose?

There are many ways to psyche oneself up for a tournament, and assuming the underdog role is only one. America won a lot of Ryder Cups in a row as the clear favorite!

Right now I just don't see American golfers being able to really reap the benefits of the underdog role. They're Americans; they just can't play underdog the way others can, and they sure didn't this weekend.

[Anthony Butler]

Everyone has a theory, and here's mine.

The Americans tried - desperately! - to assume the role of underdogs. Even Tiger Woods claimed that "We're definitely the underdogs." And on paper, it was true.

But look a little closer. Since when do *real* underdogs try so hard to convince everybody that they're underdogs? Real underdogs don't have to talk themselves, or anybody else, into it.

I don't think that American teams are capable of being legitimate underdogs. They may be unlikely to win the competition, as was the case this weekend. But as far as authentically believing that they're the little guys, that nobody believes they can do it, that they have nothing to lose, that all the pressure is on everybody else...

...No way. It's just not part of the American psyche. This is America we're talking about, the ultimate "overdog". Big, powerful, America, with the huge economy, the world's most powerful military, the biggest and best of everything.

Underdogs?

Maybe on paper, but definitely not deep down inside where it counts. You can see it in our other sports teams, too. How many of you think our World Cup soccer team really acted like they had nothing to lose?

There are many ways to psyche oneself up for a tournament, and assuming the underdog role is only one. America won a lot of Ryder Cups in a row as the clear favorite!

Right now I just don't see American golfers being able to really reap the benefits of the underdog role. They're Americans; they just can't play underdog the way others can, and they sure didn't this weekend.

This overdog, underdog thing... I think that was more about the captain and certain members of the US team attempting to manage expectations. Given that Tiger would never admit to being an underdog in any individual competition, it it interesting that he would characterize the US Team's chances in that manner. Surely the Euros took that as a sign they should win this thing.

Any US Team member already knew they were in for a tough battle from the moment they made the team. Turning up on the first tee, trying to get ahead in their matches, trying get some momentum going. All while battling a succession of opponents who were playing good golf would have simply reinforced the feeling that their backs were up against the wall.

When you are playing away from home against a tough opponent you have a lot more to overcome, no matter what the sport. That's why it's called 'home field advantage'. The US did not manage to overcome it at the K Club like the Euros did at Oakland Hills. Perhaps the urgency to prevent another Brookline situation may have caused Garcia, Monty etc.. to put it away early in 2004.

Maybe if the US team knew that the opposing crowd were going to get drunk on 3 light beers and start yelling stuff about their mother like it was a baseball game they would be extra motivated to take a few more leads... I mean, c'mon who doesn't want to listen to a few soccer chants?

Who knows what the makeup and current form of the teams will be in 2008. But I think either side would be better served by taking the attitude of "it's ours to lose" and letting the chips fall where they may if things don't go according to plan... If Zinger gets the nod over O'Meara and goes up against Faldo, I don't think you'll see either of those two admit the other team is the favorite.

[Mike Benham]

Voytek -

Did the HDTV match up to your expectations?

What about that annoying smudge or condensation on one of the cameras on Sunday?