Do any architects design only for the public/private?

[Ryan Farrow]

Design features between public/private courses can vary and it certainly has an influence on architecture. Would it benefit a designer to exclusively design private or public golf courses?

[David Stamm]

I don't think it makes a difference Ryan. It all depends on the architect, the property and the willingness for the customer to let the expert do what he is paid to do and not mettle w/ something that they don't know anything about. It also depends on how much time the arch. devotes to the project and not taking on so much work that he can't give the project the time it deserves. Pinehurst is considered by many to be Ross' masterpiece and he spent more time on that project than any other and that's public accessable, and there are others whose best work seems to happen more on private courses, but I'd be willing to bet time and time again that one of the biggest reasons that a course turned out great was beacuse the arch. knew his craft and , commited the time it deserved. That's why today Doak, Crenshaw and Coore, Gil Hanse and Jim Wagner and others whose work we admire so much on this site put out great work regardless of whether it's public or private. They "get it!"

[Tom_Doak]

Ryan:

Good design is all about considering site factors in your design (soils, drainage, vegetation, contour, etc.) and making the best of them.  Whether a course is public or private is relatively minor by comparison, so any good designer ought to be able to consider that, too, from one project to the next.

However, there IS a pretty standard career arc in this business.  When you are young and unproven, most of the work comes from public courses.  Once you're a name and the fees go up, private courses and development courses become the bulk of the work, because the smaller clients don't think they can afford you.  There are exceptions -- modest private clubs at the one end, very expensive public or municipal courses on the other -- but they're the exceptions.

[Ryan Farrow]

Tom, do you know any architects who have bucked the trend and decided to only design public courses?

I ask this because of what I have been seeing lately in the architecture industry with a trend toward "green" buildings and affordable housing. More specifically I had the pleasure of attending a lecture from Teddy Cruz who is an architect in San Diego. He is re-thinking design along the Mexican/US border as well as being highly involved in community oriented projects.

It made me think about who we are designing golf courses for and why. Frankly I could care less about providing entertaining and enjoyable golf to the top 1% of the wealthy and especially barring millions of golfers the chance to ever step foot on the course.

I know is sounds pretty harsh but I would much rather design the Bethpage’s or Rustic Canyon’s of the golf world instead of exclusive private clubs with initiation fees in the hundreds of thousands.

[Tom_Doak]

Ryan:

I don't know anyone who is turning down good private-club commissions on principle.  Hopefully if someone is doing so, they will speak up.

Right now it would be tantamount to career suicide ... there just aren't nearly as many public courses being developed as there were 5-6 years ago.  I can tell you we've got about a dozen commissions to choose from right now, and only two of them are U.S. public courses -- and neither of those has the funding in place.  Let me know if you hear of someone who is developing another Bethpage, we'd love to be involved.

[D_Malley]

didnt hugh wilson design cobbs creek GC in Philadelphia for free, or very minimal wages as a way of providing accessable golf for those who could not afford it.  i think i remember reading this somewhere.  maybe someone on this site has that info.

[D_Malley]

i think what ryan is asking is if there are any civic minded GCA's out there who are willing to give back to the game like hugh wilson did at cobbs creek.  kind of like a really good lawyer i know who choose a career working for a homeless advocacy group.  clearly sacrificing alot of money to get alot more fulfilment out of a job.

[Brian_Ewen]

George
Didn't Pete Dye design a course for a University for 1 Dollar ? .

[Tom_Doak]

Racetrack:

Actually, that's not what Ryan asked ... but there are a lot of golf architects who do an occasional project "pro bono" or for a significantly reduced fee because they want to give back.  A couple of examples:

I just read that Jack Nicklaus is redesigning the daily-fee West Palm Beach CC for free, and I think he donated his services at Ohio State also.

Rees Jones has donated all his time for work at Bethpage Black and at the Duke University course.

Pete Dye has done at least three design projects for $1 each (although I think Tim Liddy got a real fee for them).

I have not done any projects for free yet, but we have done a couple of projects for significantly less than our normal design fee to help kick-start them into happening.  Maybe in ten more years I'll be in a position to give all my work away for free, but right now there are five kids in my house.

[Jon Wiggett]

Askernish Golf Club, Scotland. A chance for a GCA to do something for historical golf!

[Mike_Cirba]

I just read that Jack Nicklaus is redesigning the daily-fee West Palm Beach CC for free, and I think he donated his services at Ohio State also.

Tom,

It must be to help out all those destitute citizens of West Palm Beach.  

Actually, I quite liked the muni course at WPB and I know that redanman is a fan of Dick Wilson's work there, as well.  I'm hoping Jack doesn't tough it up too much, because it is one of those tracks that anyone can get around pretty easily yet still remains a challenge for the better golfer due to the perched greens and often windy conditions.  It's also possibly the only course in Florida without a water hazard if memory serves.

[John Kavanaugh]

Ken Kavanaugh has donated his design services on at least two complete courses..I thought every architect gave back to the game in this manner.

[cary lichtenstein]

Pete Dye has done some courses for $1

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom, Mike

JN is doing the NORTH Palm Beach CC:

www.pga.com/news/travel/southeast/npb051706.cfm

[Tom_Doak]

Whoops, my mistake.  I was speed-reading the latest copy of Nicklaus magazine.  Didn't know there WAS a North Palm Beach CC.

[Jim Nugent]

I'm guessing a few more things pull the best architects mostly to private projects.  Aren't private courses more likely to have the overall budget needed to produce a great course?  Aren't they also more likely to get the better pieces of land?  

Finally, isn't the architect at a private course more likely to have a freer hand in producing a top course?  

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

The answer to all three of your questions is, maybe.

Some of the highest-cost projects I've heard of in recent years are all those new public courses in the Palm Desert area.  I'm sure there is a lot of red tape that goes with them, but on the flip side, you don't have to cater to the client's tastes once you've got the job.

As for better land, keep in mind that Pacific Dunes, Barnbougle and Cape Kidnappers are all open to the public.  Just because a course is privately funded doesn't mean it has to be a private club ... it's just the easier way for the client to secure his investment right now.

[Brian Joines]

I believe Dye designed the Purdue University - Kampen Course for $1