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Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 3
PLAYING WITH JOY
« on: September 23, 2006, 06:21:16 PM »
Rihc called me a Benedict Arnold the other day.  On Friday I privately proved him right.  Why?  I found myself rooting for the Euros.  Not because I hope they beat USA, but because the Euros play with joy in their hearts.  Where does the joy come from?  A few weeks ago I said the Euros had no leaders in the bag when Monty, Clarke and Olie go - probably next Ryder Cup.  I was dead wrong.  The leader of the Euros is without any doubt Sergio.  He provides the spark and the others are happy to be led.  I can now see Casey fulfilling the important side kick role that Clarke and Monty do for this current side.  

I said a few weeks ago that unless Tiger leads this team on and off the course the US will fail.  It is quite clear to me that Tiger has failed on both counts.  In fact, he is lucky to have two points thus far as Furyk has done more than his fair share.  The US needs to look elsewhere for leadership right now or their hopes of another all time comeback are nil.  The problem is where does Lehman search?  The last leader the US had was Payne Stewart.  Is there anybody on this side who can fill this VOID of inspiration?  How bout in two years time?

Ciao

Sean
« Last Edit: September 23, 2006, 06:37:31 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

ed_getka

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2006, 06:29:40 PM »
Sean,
   Out of curiosity, how do you figure Payne Stewart was a leader on the US team? I don't see that the team needs a leader, what they need are some core pairings that can get the job done.
    It is interesting to see the joy on the Euro's faces, even when they don't win a hole or are losing a match (granted, it doesn't happen much). In contrast the US team looks grim most of the time, even after hitting great shots.
   It is astounding that the "best" 3 golfers in the world don't even have enough birdies to to make it to double digits after 1-1/2 days. Zach Johnson has more birdies than Woods, Mick, and Furyk all by himself. How does that happen? ???
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Gary Daughters

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2006, 06:34:46 PM »
I'm almost with you, Sean.  I keep telling myself I want the Euros to win, but somehow I can't bring myself to root against our guys.  Still, I can't root for them, which is a real drag because the Ryder Cup used to be so much fun and something to really look forward to.  
« Last Edit: September 23, 2006, 06:41:10 PM by Gary Daughters »
THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

Paul Payne

Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2006, 06:42:04 PM »
I have to agree with Sean on this, I feel exactly the same way. I thought of this while watching Sergio walk up the fairway grinning from ear to ear and chatting up a storm. The match was nowhere near over yet but he was already acting as though it was a foregone conclusion.

I am not trying to suggest you don't need talent or good pairings but there is an emotional and psychological element to the game which the Europeans seem to have mastered.

Gary Daughters

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2006, 07:23:22 PM »

I was for Fred Funk as a captain's pick for the reason that Sean hits on.  He certainly has his shortcomings, but my God the man at least has a PULSE.
THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

johnk

Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2006, 08:39:17 PM »
It's a lot easier to play with JOY when you are winning most of the points.  A lot easier.

I think the idea that leadership, team bonding is why the JOYous Euros are winning is a bunch of crap.

They are hitting land more often, and making more putts.  That's it.

I've said it before: the Euro's have a huge advantage in the courses they pick - they play on their courses every year.  Every Euro player has played the K Club at least 10 times in competition.

And in the US, the PGA used to choose classic courses that the PGA never sees.  Now it choose the courses that have bought their way into the PGA's hearts.  And that most of the players will have never played on...

Til that changes, there will be plenty of BS about leadership, Tiger, and JOY.

Phil McDade

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2006, 08:52:50 PM »
...and that explains Euro winning at Oak Hill '95 and Oakland Hills in '02 -- and coming within two missed puts (Langer 18th hole at Kiawah and Olazabal 17th hole ((trampled)) at TCC) of winning at two other American courses -- exactly how?

It coudn't be that Europe simply has better players, or plays match-play much better...regardless of where the event is held.

Tim Bert

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2006, 08:55:42 PM »
I'll confess that I've been rooting for the Europeans ever since the big US comeback in 1999.  It doesn't have anything to do with patriotism.  Golf is just a game.  I like the Euro characters better than the guys our country puts on the line.  Mickelson is about the only guy I root for on the US squad, and he just isn't bringing it since the US Open.

I like Donald, Montie, Clarke, Howell, Westwood, and Harrington.  I love to watch Sergio step it up year after year at this event, though I'm not normally a fan.  I don't particularly care for Casey, but what a way to put an exclamation point on a match!


johnk

Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2006, 09:31:30 PM »
Phil,

I'm not saying it's the sole reason.

However, your post citing the close US victories at non Tour locales illustrates what I mean.  The US team has no local knowledge advantage.  The Euros do.  It matters.  

Statistically, the Euros aren't better putters individually.

They do have an local knowledge putting advantage at Valderrama, the Belfry and the K Club.  And the putted significantly better

The US has no local knowledge advantage at Oak Hill, Kiawah, Brookline, Oakland Hills.  Putting was about even at those locations

The US won't have any advantage at Valhalla, or Whistling Straits either...

I think that's a big factor.

Or does some mystical team bonded-ness and JOYous playing better explain all the woes of the US team over the past 15 years?

Phil McDade

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2006, 10:42:44 PM »
John:

I don't know about the JOY factor. I do subscribe to the notion that team bondedness, which Europe seems to have more of than the US generally at the Ryder Cup (borne of what I've read and heard described as a closer-knit Euro tour among their players than on the US tour, and several Euro players are regulars on the Euro tour) plays something of a role, although I wouldn't say it's the defining one.

Local knowledge, as you suggest, may play some role, but -- again -- I'm not sure it's the defining one. Helpful, yes; but I'm not sure it's the key reason.

I think, generally, most American golf fans aren't willing to subscribe to the notion that Euro golfers are nearly the equal in talent and ability to the US players, as I believe they are, world rankings be da.....Talent played out over a season, or even the crucible of a 72-hole major, brings us Tiger Woods. Talent confined to match-play, with partners, in matches sometimes lasting only 16 holes, brings us close matches, as we've seen this week.

But what gives us Donald and Garcia and Casey and Monty constantly trumping Woods and Furyk and Mickelson and Toms? I remain convinced the Euro guys simply get match-play, and how different it is -- in the pressure that is the Ryder Cup -- than stroke play. One of the non-major US players (Henry? Cink?) was being interviewed after one of his matches Friday, and talked about "getting used to this match-play thing, and it was different, but, we did all right," or words to that effect. I can't imagine a single Euro player ever uttering the words "getting used to" in the context of playing match-play. It's a much, much more common game in Europe -- at all levels of play -- and US players just seem uncomfortable in the team format of it, especially (singles records are nearly even between Euro and US since '85, further evidence that the talent level between the two is relatively minor).

Toms and Taylor, both of whom were driving on the 15th tee with their matches even, both dunked their balls in the water in foursomes play, losing those holes and essentially costing their team the chance at a win. I can't ever recall a Euro player in the last 20 years of the Ryder Cup making that kind of mistake -- getting outplayed, yes, but that kind of mistake in foursomes? I would argue the strategy of team match-play is a somewhat nuanced thing -- the importance of getting a lead early, when to take chances and when not to, who you have putting and who you have hitting approaches in foursomes -- and Euro just seems to get that in ways the US didn't.

Oh, and they putt a lot better, too -- probably 75 percent of the reason for their success. Check Euro tour putting stats against US tour putting stats for Ryder Cup players this year; Euro statistically has a ton of great putters. We have Chad Campbell and Stewart Cink.

Rick Shefchik

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2006, 11:31:07 PM »

Oh, and they putt a lot better, too -- probably 75 percent of the reason for their success. Check Euro tour putting stats against US tour putting stats for Ryder Cup players this year; Euro statistically has a ton of great putters. We have Chad Campbell and Stewart Cink.

To me, this is where it starts and ends. We've seen the Euros putt better for two decades now, with a couple of blips (1991, 1999). Watch the pace with which their balls roll into the hole -- fast and firm. Only Harrington and McGinley, as I recall, have hit some tentative putts for the Euros, and I believe they are feeling the pressure of performing for the hometown fans. The rest of their teammates are swinging the putterhead freely, the way you must if you're going to make birdies.

The U.S. players -- with the possible exception of Toms, and Zach Johnson this morning -- appear to be feeling much more pressure than the Euros are. I don't think it has anything to do with leadership or not caring about the Cup; if anything, the U.S. team -- like Harrington and McGinley -- care too much. No one is immune from this, least of all players like Woods and Mickelson, of whom far more is expected than anyone else in the field. Sergio? Based on how he's folded in the majors this year, expectations for him were about nil. He's stroked his ball like a man who doesn't have a care in the world.

Free your putterhead, and everything else follows -- including finding dry land with the driver.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2006, 01:02:56 AM by Rick Shefchik »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Gary Daughters

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2006, 12:04:36 AM »

John K,

Very nice points and well-stated.

Just wondering, is there a chance there is a "European" attitude toward golf (huge generalization, I know) that we might take note of?

Tom Lehman isn't playing down attitude and neither is Tiger Woods.  You know the Woods story.  And you know that Lehman met with Coach K and Wooden.  Hell, maybe they really WERE talking putting. :'(

Yeh, you're right it's easy to laugh when you're winning.  But these guys seem to laugh from the get-go.  And then they start winning ..
THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

Gary Daughters

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2006, 12:18:51 AM »

"free your putterhead, and everything else follows -- including finding dry land with the driver."

quote of the year
THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

Jim Nugent

Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2006, 12:47:58 AM »
I have to agree with Sean on this, I feel exactly the same way. I thought of this while watching Sergio walk up the fairway grinning from ear to ear and chatting up a storm. The match was nowhere near over yet but he was already acting as though it was a foregone conclusion.


He grins so much during the RC because he has such a winning record there.  I don't recall seeing grins in the Open Championship or other majors.  Mostly grimaces as he misses 4 footers and chokes every time he gets in contention.  Later we hear excuses about bad luck, and insinuations that Tiger isn't as great as everyone but he thinks.

Something about team play in the Ryder Cup has brought out the best in Sergio, and often the other Euros too.  But he can't carry that over to singles play -- so far he has a losing record there -- and more important to what golf is about the other 51 1/2 weeks of the year.  

The mystery of the Ryder Cup continues.  

Kevin Pallier

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2006, 01:03:24 AM »
I think the idea that leadership, team bonding is why the JOYous Euros are winning is a bunch of crap.

They are hitting land more often, and making more putts.  That's it.

I've said it before: the Euro's have a huge advantage in the courses they pick....

John,

So - it's the courses....making more putts...and hitting land more often.....sorry - but I believe you are missing the point completely.

The mental side of the game is a key component of playing good golf but even moreso in a team game like the Ryder Cup where you have to rely on a partner.

It's no secret that the Europeans tend to do well in the team games of Foursomes / 4-ball and that the US team does well individually - good leadership and team "bonding" (or more aptly harmony) and other mental aspects of the game / competition in my eyes has a lot to do with that.

Mark Pearce

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2006, 03:24:10 AM »
Mickelson won the Masters grinning from ear to ear.  When he first won a major under intense pressure it was obvious he was having a ball.  At the K Club he looks miserable.  Players play better when they're enjoying themselves.  The US aren't enjoying this.  Europe are.  The important thing, though, is that Europe have been enjoying themselves since Friday morning, led by Monty and Sergio who look like there's nowhere they'd rather be.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

ForkaB

Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2006, 04:26:05 AM »
It's all about emotion.  The Euros have it and the US doesn't (unless you call self-delusional depression an emotion).  The US thinks this is a Major, and all about grinding.  The Euros see this a a festival, and all about celebrating golf.

The courses have absolutely nothing to do with it.  Put the US team at Pebble Beach with all thier experience of the venue but with all the Ryder Cup hoopla and they'd fold like cheap shirts there too.

A lot of this is the "team" thing.  Americans talk a good game regarding teamwork and collective responsibility--it is in the blood of Europeans.  Americans just do not get what team play involvess, in golf at least.

That being said.....6-10 going into the singles......think Brookline!  And if Lehman leads a cavalry charge over the 17th this time, with all the rain, even Sergio won't be able to sink the putt! :)

PS--Sean.  Be proud of your avatar, Benedict Arnold.  He too made a rational decision to join what he thought (at the time) were the obvious winners.  Tis a pity he was wrong..... ;)

Brian_Ewen

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2006, 04:30:07 AM »
Speaking as an European , I have been a bit nervous at Sergio's choice of partner this week  :)

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=17799826&method=full&siteid=66633&headline=hooked-on-shark-s-girl-name_page.html

Jim Nugent

Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2006, 10:05:56 AM »
Sergio was not smiling today.  He grins when he wins.  When he loses, he reacts the same way the U.S. players do when they have lost.  

Lloyd_Cole

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2006, 01:58:16 PM »
Sergio was not smiling today.  He grins when he wins.  When he loses, he reacts the same way the U.S. players do when they have lost.  
Let's get this right. He grins when he's winning. Who grins when they're losing? After he had lost he behaved quite graciously in defeat, if you ask me. Who wouldn't when you've been whooped??

Jim Nugent

Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2006, 02:13:04 PM »
Sergio was not smiling today.  He grins when he wins.  When he loses, he reacts the same way the U.S. players do when they have lost.  
Let's get this right. He grins when he's winning. Who grins when they're losing? After he had lost he behaved quite graciously in defeat, if you ask me. Who wouldn't when you've been whooped??

Of course I agree.  But his joy of playing is being offered as the reason he does so great at the RC.  That's the part I don't buy.  I think the cart is dragging that horse.  

Lloyd_Cole

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2006, 02:20:21 PM »
Sergio was not smiling today.  He grins when he wins.  When he loses, he reacts the same way the U.S. players do when they have lost.  
Let's get this right. He grins when he's winning. Who grins when they're losing? After he had lost he behaved quite graciously in defeat, if you ask me. Who wouldn't when you've been whooped??

Of course I agree.  But his joy of playing is being offered as the reason he does so great at the RC.  That's the part I don't buy.  I think the cart is dragging that horse.  

And I agree with that also!
I posted in another thread the idea that the Ryder Cup may enable certain great, but not major winning, players, to get over themselves. The putt is for the team, not me!! This is key in sports. I have certainly felt I've been able to hole putts in clutch situations, 'for my partner' more often than I have in singles competition. And then again, that just might be me, and Sergio, and Monty...

Tim Pitner

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2006, 02:20:36 PM »
Ole ole ole.

Some may chastise me for this, but I've rooted for Europe since I started following the Ryder Cup in 1991.  At first, I supported them because they were the underdogs and I liked some of their personalities more.  Now, it's because they just have more fun with it.  It's great to see.  I would like to see a more competitive contest though.

Paul Payne

Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2006, 02:23:00 PM »
I look at this differently. I think Sergio naturally plays with much more confidence in the team pairings than he does in the individual events. It shows in his record. Over his career he is 13-1-2 in the paired events. That is huge! Meanwhile he is only 2-2 in the individual events. I think he may get a little more relaxed and freewheeling when he has a partner to rely on. Not that he needs to all the time but it is an insurance policy, thus the joy tends to flow more freely.

Jim Nugent

Re:PLAYING WITH JOY
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2006, 02:55:49 PM »
Meanwhile he is only 2-2 in the individual events.

Actually, he is 1-3 in RC singles.  Making your point even stronger.