Logistics of Temporary Green Alterations

[wsmorrison]

What if a green is going to be changed (right or wrong) for a major tournament.  How much would it cost to map and digitally record the original green specifications, change the green for the tournament itself and then revert back to the original green?  How much playing time would be lost in the transition in each direction?  What are the steps required regarding turf, construction and other procedures?

Can this be a viable alternative to permanently altering greens for tournaments and should it be part of the contract to hold a tournament?

[Eric Franzen]

Interesting.
Would there be a risk of losing some of the nuances in the character of the orginal green when it is restored after the tournament?

[TEPaul]

Such a thought process is nothing more than a prescription for disaster and probably both ways. Talk about not leaving golf courses alone---that idea is the ultimate.

[BCrosby]

I would think such an undertaking would be extremely expensive, time consuming and likely to fail. It's the reason nobody tries to lengthen courses by moving greens. It's also the primary reason why moving tees back does not recover traditional shot values.

What is the context of the question?

Bob

[wsmorrison]

Tom P/Bob C,

This is hypothetical.  Please assume a governing body wants a green softened because the slope is so severe with expected grass height that there "are not enough pin positions."  So for this academic exercise, consider it a given that the green will be altered and leaving the golf course alone is not an option.

I am taking a perspective that the membership ought to weigh the option of bringing the green back to its former design.  Is it technologically possible, and if so how much would it cost and what is the true probability of succes?

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
This is an involved process.  The area of disruption is far greater than the green surface itself.  To do it properly (the definition of "properly" is very subjective) you need to transistion the green surface well out into the surrounds to tie everything together.  Numbers could be all over the map but easily reach $150-200K to change it and then change it back.  

I don't see this concept as very viable (waste of time and money).  
Mark

[JESII]

I have been quoted the cost for a new green to be $50,000. Is that accurate? If so, how does it then cost three times that to soften some of the internal contours of a green? Why, when green speed is the concern, would you need to do work outside of the green border for this to work? Correct me if I'm wrong Wayne, but aren't you just asking about taking some severity out of a green as opposed to building an entirely new (less severe) green?

[JESII]

By the way, it seems like a bad idea to me as well. Actually, this is one of the few ideas that make the notion of maintaining greens at different speeds during the US Open a good idea.

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

You are exactly right, the scenario I posed is just to soften internal slope, as you say, taking out the severity of the green.  I too was a little surprised at Mark's projections and scope of the project.  My uniformed guess would have been that the alteration and restoration would be significantly less that Mark quoted, maybe along the lines of $100,000.  

If the restoration was of an historically significant green, I don't think it would be a waste of time or money, especially if the governing body paid and not the club.  

Is it possible to faithfully recreate the original green and thus be a scenario to consider in addition to the cost?

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

I think it is a bad idea as well.  I was told that the change in greenspeeds to accomodate severe slopes done at Southern Hills and Olympic make that possibility unlikely in the future.  The tourning pros were seemingly up in arms; not that I would care much what they thought if I were a member of a club facing a request for change.

[JESII]

Regardless of cost, my impression is that the real risk is to the grass quality. Assuming we are talking about a mature course with consistent turf profiles, it might be difficult both going and coming to make this transition. Let's try to get a super or two to chime in on that.

When asking about a number, are you looking for the complete project (strip - regrade - wait a few years - strip - regrade) cost?

[JESII]

Do we have any facts on the actual speed difference the USGA sought on those specific greens at Olympic, Southern Hills and possible Shinnecock? Would it be that detrimental to the rest of the golf course to go at the slower speed all the way around?

[wsmorrison]

"When asking about a number, are you looking for the complete project (strip - regrade - wait a few years - strip - regrade) cost?"

Yes, I am.  Although in my hypothetical scenario, I'd rather not wait a couple of years but rather as soon as possible afterwards.

[JESII]

Yes, but you would want to do the initial strip and regrade a couple years in advance wouldn't you?

[wsmorrison]

Oh, yes.  You're absolutely right.  Sorry 'bout that  

I do hope architects and especially superintendents help with some answers.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
Just back on the GCA site for a moment.  A couple things;
1) If you are not re-building the entire green, the cost of course would be less.  However, in the area you are softening, you will have to do work well out into the surrounds to tie everything together.  For example, you can't just take the back of a steep green and lower it without going into the back surrounds.  I guess you could do that, but it would probably look goofy.  As an example, think about a spine coming into the back of a green.  You can't just lower the spine at the green edge and forget about the rest.  Everything should tie together to get it looking like that is the way it always was.  The cost to do this work is tied to the size of the area of disturbance, 2) The cost for a "new green" might be $50,000.  It might also be $35,000 or $135,000 depending on the size.  A 5000 sq. ft. green costs a lot less than a 8000 sq. ft. one.  Material of construction also has an impact.  3) Another added factor is how accurately you want to map the area of disturbance?

These things all add to the potential cost.  Again, the extent of the work to be done is probably the biggest cost factor.