[Doug Siebert]

Shivas,

I don't buy your argument at all.  Are you telling me you have never had a hole that got into your head, a hole that played much harder for you than it did for other people, or even than it used to play for you, without any change in your ability?  A hole that even during a good round seems to bring out your one really big snap hook off the tee, or where every time you see that back right pin position you just know you are going to chicken wing on the approach and leave it on the bottom tier with a guaranteed three putt?

If you can truly claim that this has never happened to you, then you belong next to Tiger Woods and Ben Hogan as the only people who ever totally mentally ruled over golf.  The rest of us weak minded fools sometimes see or experience problems we hadn't known existed the first or second time we played a hole and were blissfully unaware of what danger there was.  Once we saw or experienced it, it was always there in the back of our minds and even if we don't think about it on a conscious level it affects our execution.

[PThomas]

#3 at The Golf Club...a par 3, 185 yds...water short/left, which is apparent from the tee...but one cannot see all of the bunkers left and behind the green, some of which are VERY deep

a pretty small green too

[Mike_Cirba]

I played The Ranch in Southwich, MA a couple of years ago at the end of the season as a single. I never noticed the lake to left of the first green (par 5). I thought 'this is a pretty simple opener' and knocked a 3 wood on leaving a quite short eagle putt (rare in my game), missed, but I'm sure I would have laid up if I had seen the lake.

The first hole at the original course at Stonewall has a similar blind water hazard that is just out to the right of the second shot on the par five.  

After you play the hole the first time, you never think about the second shot in the same way again.

[Brad Swanson]

Would the word-parsing among us prefer the thread to be called "Holes that PLAY harder after the first play"?  I think you get the gist either way.

Cheers,
Brad

[Patrick_Mucci]

The first hole at Pine Valley is really the poster child for this concept..

From the fairway, you really can't tell how deep the green is, nor can you tell that the further back you go, the further and steeper each side falls away into Threechipland.  

You also can't tell from the fairway how narrow of a target the green actually is, because it's widest point is the wide-open, inviting front edge.

Once you get up there and experience some minor vertigo standing on the green itself and looking over the sides, you quickly realize that the smart approach shot for the average player is to play just short of the green.  

Mike,

I'd agree with you with respect to # 1 at PV.

The first time I ever played it I hit a decent drive, asked for the yardage to the pin and fired an iron to six feet.

When I got up to the green, and saw that the pin was in the very back, as I approached my ball to mark it, I said to myself, "I"m glad I didn't know how narrow the green was and how steep the falloffs were, because, had I known, I would have played two clubs less.

The principle is akin to "ignorance is bliss"

Many holes don't reveal their teeth or the consequences of a mis-hit or mis-play until after you've played them.

That post-play info makes the hole far more difficult on subsequent plays.

I also think the benefits of positive reinforcement evaporate when all of the negative data is revealed.

I've played some of my best rounds, the first time I played a golf course, usually because I tell the caddy I just want to know where to hit it, and NOT where not to hit it.

I think there are an abundance of holes that don't reveal their full character and difficulty until after you've played them, and even then, depending how you played them, you still might not have ALL of the problem areas revealed to you.

I do know that it takes TEPaul a minimum of 50 plays before he begins to "get it" unless either I, or his faithful dog "Coorshaw" is with him during the round.

[Dan Kelly]

That post-play info makes the hole far more difficult on subsequent plays.

If Shivas gets a hold of that comment, this thread might never end!

[Bryce Mueller]

i think almost all of pine valley is tougher, because much of the time u don't realize how hard it is around the greens until you get up there. For instance, i hit it to about 3 feet on a back left pin on 6, but after i got there, i realized how dumb it was to fire at that pin, even with a wedge...

[ed_getka]

Brad,
   Who do you think was Clinton's adviser when it came to word-parsing?  

How is young Lars doing? Between you and Wayne, Tom H, and other recent fathers, the future of golf is still bright.

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