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Mark_Rowlinson

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Ideal match play venues
« on: September 20, 2006, 11:44:31 AM »
Since 1980 the Ryder Cuppers have played

Walton Heath composite
PGA National
The Belfry
Muirfield Village
The Belfry
Kiawah Island Ocean
The Belfry
Oak Hill
Valderrama
The Country Club
Belfry
Oakland Hills
K Club

The Walker Cuppers have played

Cypress Point
R Liverpool
Pine Valley
Sunningdale Old
Peachtree
Portmarnock
Interlachen
R Porthcawl
Quaker Ridge
Nairn
Ocean Forest, Sea Island
Ganton
Chicago

I don't know the US courses, but I certainly prefer the amateurs' courses on this side of the pond.  But are they in any way superior as match-play venues?  Next time out the Walker Cup goes to R Co Down.  What other courses would you like to see on the list in future - on either side of the Atlantic - and why would they be good match-play venues?

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2006, 11:51:26 AM »
I like the Walker Cup sites on both sides of the pond by a large spread.

Tony_Chapman

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Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2006, 12:06:41 PM »
Mark - Do you know who controls the choosing of the Ryder Cup courses in Europe? Here it is the PGA, is it the same over there?

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2006, 12:10:57 PM »
I don't know, but I imagine it is the PGA after a great many free dinners and offers of lots of dosh.  

David Stamm

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Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2006, 12:12:35 PM »
I have to agree w/ Tiger. I like the Walker Cup venues by a wide margin as well.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tony_Chapman

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Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2006, 12:13:46 PM »
That's probably the main reason for the differences in courses. The Walker Cup being a USGA/R&A event as compared to the Ryder Cup.

I know we are taking the Ryder Cup to Valhalla, Whistling Straits in the next few year. I think WS will be a very neat venue (especially in late September!).

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2006, 12:30:03 PM »
But where would you like to see the Walker Cup taken?  Crystal Downs?  Pacific Dunes?  Engineers?  Sebonac?  

Over here I'd love to see it go to Woodhall Spa, Royal Portrush, Deal, Lahinch (it is a GB and I team, after all, and it has been to Portmarnock), Royal Dornoch, Western Gailes, and if only one could lengthen Royal Ashdown, The Addington, St Enodoc and Ballybunion.

wsmorrison

Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2006, 12:35:36 PM »
How about the Walker Cup at Merion in 2009?  It is already in the books with Buddy Marruci (MGC member) the likely captain.  It is a great venue for stroke and particularly matchplay with the risk/rewards that abound, particularly with the short par 4s.

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2006, 12:43:49 PM »
I think Merion would be a great place. I like the idea of Seminole, Pacific Dunes, Pebble, 5 or 6 different places on Long Island and of course Pine Valley. Augusta National would be the best of all.

Eric Franzen

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Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2006, 12:46:01 PM »
Yale would be close to ideal for match play - at least in my eyes.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2006, 12:51:34 PM »
I always loved the Skins games at PGA West Stadium course and I think it would be a great match play course too.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2006, 12:53:45 PM »
We know Merion's strengths as a match play venue from last year's Amateur - some of the play I saw there was breathtaking.  That 17th and the drive at the 18th!  Mind boggling!  Did the Scot win this year because Hazeltine is a modern course and, if our Ryder Cup players are any barometer, we seem to do better on modern courses?

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2006, 02:21:00 PM »
Hey Mark -  

Where is your Ryder Cup unity - a European won at Merion.  ;) Does an Italian count to an Englishman?

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2006, 02:27:08 PM »
You're quite right, an Italian did, but we haven't yet found the need to bring other Europeans into the Walker Cup team and in Molinari we are talking of an amateur.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2006, 02:37:04 PM »
As foursomes (alternate shots) are an important element in Ryder and Walker Cups is it a good thing to have two par 3 on even numbered holes and two on odds?  Ditto par 5s?

Tommy Williamsen

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Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2006, 03:32:03 PM »
Mark, i think it depends who is playing.  Pine Valley is a great match play course for single digit players.  I have won and lost holes with bogerys and worse.  It seems that there are more holes lost and won, which for me makes it more exciting than tieing hole after hole with pars.  I would put Prtmarnock and Quaker Ridge in the sam category.
For both pro and amateur the Ocean course is a great match play course for the same reasons.
Cypress is great just because of the course and on 15-17 anything can happen.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2006, 08:52:11 PM »
The politics of the Walker Cup vs. the Ryder Cup are amazingly different.  It's not just that the USGA controls one and the PGA the other.  The Walker Cup gets great sites because it is a small event -- Pine Valley and Chicago Golf and the rest DO NOT WANT the hospitality tents and hoopla of the Ryder Cup, but see the Walker Cup as a way to host a prestigious event without much disruption to their course.

I was told by Mike Davis there were something like 44 invitations by clubs to host the next Walker Cup in the USA.

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2006, 09:05:31 PM »
Tom, that makes all the sense in the world. Thanks for confirming it.

Mark Pearce

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Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2006, 07:09:07 AM »
As foursomes (alternate shots) are an important element in Ryder and Walker Cups is it a good thing to have two par 3 on even numbered holes and two on odds?  Ditto par 5s?
I'm not sure, picking who drives on which holes is an interesting feature of foursomes golf.  I didn't realise until I just read it on a BBC report that all four par 5s at the K Club are even numbered holes.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Pearce

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Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2006, 07:11:57 AM »
I've just checked the K Club card.  Three of the par 3s and all four par 5s are even numbered holes.  In foursomes one player will hit the tee shot at three par 3s, two par 4s and four par 5s, the other at one par 3 and eight par 4s.  That seems really odd to me.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2006, 11:22:01 AM »
Mark - in the world of higher handicap golf that would make a difference.  My partner would almost certianly be able to drive further than I can so he would probably want to take all four par 5s and, therefore, three of the par 3s.  But, maybe the carries are longer and more treacherous on some of the long par 4s, so it might make more sense if he drove on those holes and I took the 3s and 5s.  We'll have another pint of the black stuff while we deshide whish of ush should drive at whish holej.  Cheers!

JohnV

Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2006, 01:06:40 PM »
We run a 36-hole Foursomes stroke play event every year and we require that the player who teed off on the odd holes in the morning, tee off on the even ones in the afternoon.

Witch Hollow seems to be a good match play course given the results of the US Am in 1996 and the Women's Am this year.  I think the reason for that is the number of par 3s and 5s on the course (5 each).  Either that or a lot of half-par holes makes a course an interesting match play course.

Forest Highlands' Canyon course was very interesting for match play at the US Mid-Am this year with 6 3s, 5 5s and at least a couple of 1/2 par 4s.

Phil McDade

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Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2006, 01:40:22 PM »
"Did the Scot win this year because Hazeltine is a modern course and, if our Ryder Cup players are any barometer, we seem to do better on modern courses?"

I don't know necessarily that he won because of the course, lengthier than the ones being discussed for Walker Cup competitions et al., though length may have played a factor. My sense was that he was a much better ball striker and more consistent putter. In particular, he was not as long as his finalist opponent, and thus usually was hitting first into the green, which is often an advantage in match play. One of the Golf Channel commentators (Chamblee, I think) talked about this and why Monty is such a great match-play player -- he's very consistent in putting the ball on the fairway from the tee, he hits lots of greens, and thus he puts constant pressure on his opponent(s). The Scotsman who won the AM seemed to have a very similar game -- fairways and greens, hope to sink a few putts along the way, and keep mistakes to a minimum -- in other words, be consistent hole to hole and apply pressure to your opponent.

Jason Blasberg

Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2006, 08:59:05 PM »
But where would you like to see the Walker Cup taken?  Crystal Downs?  Pacific Dunes?  Engineers?  Sebonac?  

Engineers would be an ideal match play venue that would play short on length but long on bite around the green.  In better ball putting could be far more aggressive and the course would yield birdies but in alternate shot it would be quite a difference if you knew your partner had to make the comebacker.  

The championship routing that likely works best for today's game is playng 1, 16, 17, 2 (as 1-4) going out and 14, 15 and 18 (as 16, 17, 18) coming-in.  You'd have 2 or 20 a 110 yard par 3 (16) followed by a 500 yard downhill par 4 (17) and the sunken green 420 yard par 4 18th which in fast and firm conditions a real long knocker might have the option of having driver roll out over the ridge down the hill and about 330 yards off the tee and ending up about 10 yards short of the green.  

If the course lacks distance for a Walker Cup the regular mens tees could be used for a Curtis Cup.

How long did Chicago Golf play last year?  

Jason Blasberg

Re:Ideal match play venues
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2006, 12:21:40 AM »
For a modern course I'd have to think that BGC is ideal for a Walker Cup, although a bit of a hike between nines the course and those greens set up wonderfully for match play.  Plus it would be cool to see a par 3 finish in that format.