[Ally Mcintosh]

i knew about rosemount initially being a mackenzie design which was then substantially redesigned by james braid...

...what i didn't know until yesterday was that when peter alliss and dave thomas designed the adjacent landsdowne course in the seventies, they stole some of the rosemount course and a couple of uninteresting holes were adjoined onto the back of the old course, thus compromising it...

...i played both courses just the once about three years ago and i'm guessing the 1st and 18th on the landsdowne (two cracking holes) were originally part of the rosemount...

...can anyone confirm this or post a map of the whole estate so as i can work out the original routing for myself...

...i realise this may be a longshot

thanks

[plabatt]

Ally
I am not an expert on the Rosemont course.  But here is what I do know: Braid added 8 entirely new holes when revamping MacKenzie’s layout.  Another reference states that Thomas and Alliss co-opted the first and eighteenth holes into their Landsdowne layout.  Having played the Rosemount the first hole does not fit the style of the following seventeen holes.  However, Rosemount’s eighteenth does carry the style of the previous holes.  From Strokesaver’s map it may have been possible that Landsdowne’s first hole would have been Rosemount’s first and the current third hole would have been the second hole.  Rosemount’s current seventeen would have been the sixteenth and the current second hole would have been the seventeenth and Landsdowne’s eighteenth would have been the original Rosemount eighteenth.

Sorry cannot get the map to insert into the reply.

Hope this helps,
Peter

[Ally Mcintosh]

thanks for the answer, plabatt - much appreciated... from memory i would say that makes sense... however, i have read material that has stated that two uninteresting parkland holes were added on to the back of the rosemount layout to make up for the two holes stolen by thomas / alliss... it certainly makes sense that the two stolen holes were the 1st and the 18th of the landsdowne but this means also that the current 1st and 18th on the rosemount must always have been in play... for the life of me, i can't remember those two parkland holes but i'm guessing they must be around the 7th / 8th...

...to back this up, i believe the great finish to the rosemount (15 to 18) has been there since the braid days...

...out of interest, why do you say that the 1st isn't in keeping with the rest of the course?

[Ally Mcintosh]

right.... i think i'm going to answer my own question because i've just managed to locate a plan of the estate (note to self - always check club website first... http://www.theblairgowriegolfclub.co.uk/)...

also, seeing the map has jogged my memory for visualising the holes...

...my educated guess is that 6 and 7 on the rosemount are add ons - they certainly seemed like it at the time being routed in a field rather than moorland... the current 10th on rosemount would have therefore been the 8th and you would have walked from that straight to the current 18th on lansdowne... then back up the 1st on lansdowne and rejoin the rosemount at the 11th and play through to the end...

...this would also have brought the 9th back to the clubhouse which makes sense, especially when considering the original designer...

...that is a fairly big loss to a most beautiful course and most galling when you realise the thomas / alliss  lansdowne course is a rather uninspired piece of design that just so happens to have beautiful surroundings

thanks anyway

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Ally,

Note also that few people know anything about British courses except those actively involved in research into their history (where sufficient archives survive) apart from those who live in the States, who seem to know everything.  As a British resident I confess to almost total ignorance about matters GCA-wise over here - and I reckon to be in an educated minority.  God help the rest....

[plabatt]

Ally
This is a reply from a enquiry that I emailed to Paul Thomas:Dear Peter

The golf course was originally laid out so that the club, if wanted,
could utilise two holes from the Rosemount as starting and finishing holes for the Landsdowne.  I think this was tried for a while, or maybe just considered, but the last time I visited the course (half a lifetime ago!) the Landsdowne started and finished in the woods, some distance from the clubhouse.  This obviously suggests that the Rosemount course remains in tact as the original and that my father's suggestions for two starting and finishing courses at the clubhouse were not taken on by the Committee.

I hope this somehow answers your query.

Yours sincerely
Paul Thomas

I do not think that this clarifies our search.  Landsdowne's first and eighteenth start and finish at the Starter's Hut.  Having not played the Landsdowne 18, I cannot say for certain if they were the originals on the Rosemount.  Looking at the course diagram, the placement of bunkering on Landsdowne's first and eighteenth, they appear more in Braid's style.  I say this because I have played Braid's Lundin Links, Carnoustie, Elie Golf House, and Prestwick.

In retrospect, why I did not think that the current Rosemount first hole fit the style of the course was that the fairway was very wide and the greenside bunkering was absent compared to the other holes. Yes, there is one bunker short left of the green.  IMO the first hole is more MacKenzie than Braid.

Peter

[Ally Mcintosh]

peter, thanks very much for taking the time to do that... paul thomas's answer does not seem informed though because as you correctly state both courses now finish at the clubhouse...

...actually, i am almost convinced that my previous post nailed the situation... it seems to make the most sense by far after learning of the two added farmland holes (6 & 7)

...by the way, i also learned that donald steel was asked in to redesign the green complex on the first hole so that would go some way to answering your belief that the 1st was out of sync with the rest of the course

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