Homestead: Cascades William Flynn

[cary lichtenstein]

Terrific golf course, loved it, loved it.

I have a question that perhaps someone can answer:

Are the ponds fronting the 16th and 18th greens originally there, or were they added later, and if so, by whom??/

[TEPaul]

The pond fronting the 16th green was added by RTJ and the green was moved behind the pond. The water situation to the right of #17 (18), and the green and bunkering on the 17th is a bit more complicated and Wayne could tell you more about that. The first green may be RTJ too---I don't think anyone is all that sure although the owner of the Homestead said moving the that green to where it is now was the last thing Flynn did on the course in the 1940s.

The 14th green is the real issue. That's an RTJ green that was moved about 30-35 yards farther out than Flynn's original 14th green and unfortunately that got in the way of a really cool old original REAALY long tee on the 15th (it was originally about 240-250 yards).

Those old ultra long par 3s from some of those early architects must have been some pretty fascinating holes to play. Given all this excessive distance increase that David Moriarty has been crowing about I recommended that elite players have the option of playing to the 15th green from one of the 13th tees. I think that would sort of match Flynn's old shot values on the original 15th. You know, from the 13th tee to the 15th green might be about 347 yards making it about a 3 wood stinger for Tiger.  

Glad you liked the course. Those bunkers there now are a pretty exact Flynn restoration using a lot of old photos and Flynn's original hole drawings.

[wsmorrison]

Cary,

Tom accurately described the hole evolutions you were curious about and then some.  He did not mention that the pond in front of 18 was created by Flynn by damming the stream, with its source to the left of the 18th green, before it flowed into Cress Lake (where water cress for the resort was cultivated).  Flynn's 16th green was in front of the stream.  RTJ created the pond and moved the green behind the stream.  We suggested changing the bunkering to a more Flynn-like appearance and that was done.  RTJ moved the 17th green a bit further down the line of play and towards the stream.  The green is rather bland and the bunkering was pretty ugly.  The greenside bunkers were also changed to a more Flynn-like look and placement.

We sure would like to see Flynn's 14th green returned to its former location.  Accurate drawings and good photographs would make it rather easy to do.  A new tee could be put in by the stream (even on the far side).  This would improve 14 and allow the former tee on 15 to be returned.  There wouldn't be such a tight chute of trees to hit through (with 1 tee being in play for sliced tee shots) and the green would be properly oriented to the line of play once again.

The 6th green was moved to the right side of the stream because that's what Ingalls wanted.  He thought the width before the old green was too narrow.

What were some of the holes you especially liked?  

[wsmorrison]

Did you play the Old Course by the hotel?  There is a lot more Flynn there than either of the two other architects, Donald Ross and RTJ, Jr.  It is an interesting collection of 6 par 3s, 6 par 4s and 6 par 5s.

[TEPaul]

"Tom accurately described the hole evolutions you were curious about and then some.  He did not mention that the pond in front of 18 was created by Flynn by damming the stream, with its source to the left of the 18th green, before it flowed into Cress Lake (where water cress for the resort was cultivated)."

Wayne:

There's actually a totally extraordinary reason I didn't mention that about the 18th. I either forgot it or didn't know that.    

[wsmorrison]

You forget something?  Come on, Tom.  Impossible  

Scott Wood, another GCAer is going to the Cascades tomorrow for 3 days.  I hope he reports his impressions on this site sometime soon.

[cary lichtenstein]

This course is a must play in my humble opinion. Any gca should try to get there and play it at least twice. We took a caddy the 2nd time to help us read the greens, they are moutain greens and tough to figure out the breaks and the downhills v uphills.

How William Flynn designed this course in 1922 whith the ball and clubs of that day, and it is still very relative today, amazes me.

[scott_wood]

HEAVEN can be defined by many GCAers as ....first off (by 30 minutes) two days running, solo, @ 7.15 with a good caddie who grew up adjacent to the course relating the local stories, mist/fog blowing "up the gap", sun slowly burning it off, leaves just starting to turn, conditioning par excellance, on a very very good classic course AND VIEWING THOSE BUNKERS ..WOW ...

a sincere, "here, here/tip of the hat" to Tom and Wayne's wonderful renovation.... AND include CCA, the Homestead's owner, for having the vision to allow/encourage them......hopefully the new owner's ( rumor has it down to private equity groups..no Donald, no Marrriott) will continue the changes mentioned by Tom and Wayne

I really was "rooting" for shots to be IN the bunkers,the surrounding 5-6 inch rough was so difficult to play from......but I continually dropped  "breakfast" balls into the rough just for "the fun".....

Yes, the way to play #4 IS to aim short right,and walk of with par....and all who are able to keep the tee ball on #2, 7 ( and maybe 10) get "extra credit" on their exam....and the interrupted fairways do work well and DO add another dimension to one's decisions.....and 6679 is NOT short ( at least in the morning dew ofr this "sr" golfer...) at the Cascades..

in short, the Homestead has "upped the ante" for all resorts in America striving to be serious in the product they offer..CONGRATS to both of you!!

[Mike_Sweeney]

Tom Wayne,

At the risk of blowing your own horn, I would be curious to know more details of your involvement. How was lengthening handled?

[TEPaul]

MikeS:

What we offered the Cascades (Homestead) was a comprehensive historically based restoration master plan. All they've done to date is the restoration of the course's bunkering (and some green expansion). Lengthening was an issue, it was discussed at length and it can be tricky business, in my opinion, but that has not be done yet, that I know of. In my opinion, it's not that hard to tell that the Cascades does not have much easily usable "elasticity".

What I'm most interested in that hopefully will come next or soon is fairway recontouring, a true firm and fast maintenance application and the restoration of the 14th and 15th holes.