Very OT: An Open Apology to Patrick Mucci

[Gib_Papazian]

Mike,

ND is relevant because the television media makes them relevant. Kids want to play on TV and their exposure cannot be denied with that fat contract and every game being broadcast coast to coast.


Unlike most Trojans, I do not *really* hate ND, because we need them. Every great university like USC needs a black hat to fight with - otherwise what would be the point?

UCLA is really just an annoying 2nd class public school on a campus with more parking structures than academic buildings. In short, who cares? They beat us for a few years and acted like they had just won the national championship.

But USC-ND . . . . that is not some regional cat fight.

The Trojans and the Irish *ARE* college football in America. It is the most historic and important rivalry in NCAA athletics - and will be through our lifetimes.

Nobody cares about Army-Navy or any of those snot-nosed Ivy League dweebs throwing slide rules at each other (read: Haaavaaard & Yale). That was several generations ago.Nobody watches because they stink.

USC: 34
ND:   21

[Patrick_Mucci]

Interesting you continue to trumpet a defense that gives up 47 points though.... and here I thought it was a team game... for my sake let's hope the Irish players point fingers at each other like you are.  Keep the faith, brother.

Obviously, a great football mind such as yourself considers passes intercepted and fumble recoveries returned for touchdowns as defensive "give ups"

I'd suggest boning up on the basics of the game before you get to the advanced stuff.

Oh, and by the way, you might want to teach the DBs how to actually guard a decent receiver.  If you think Manningham torched them, well.... USC has five of his quality.

Where were they last year ?

I mentioned the DB's short comings a long time ago, before the season started, I stated that their defensive backs were short and suspect.  You're just finding this out ?  So much for being a student of the game.

[Tom Huckaby]

A student of the game learns quite quickly that winners look at the score, losers rationalize their shortcomings.

Thanks for proving this!

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Scaletta,

You have to understand that Shivas has a bad case of gridiron envy.

Ask him if he's looked at the most recent NCAA Graduation rates and seen his beloved, high powered football program's graduation rates compared to ND's.

ND 96 %  NWU 92 %

Both are great rates.

But, their choice of competition,  New Hampshire ?
Doesn't that say it all.
Can you blame him for being green with envy ?
I can't.  I feel his pain.

Also, I missed seeing NWU on TV this weekend.
Don't they have a deal with ABC, CBS, or ESPN  ?
I wonder why noone cares enough about their football program to put it on a National Network ?

Gib,

Rivalries are what makes college football great.

Ohio State vs Michigan
Army vs Navy, despite your views
ND vs USC
UCLA vs USC
Texas vs Oklahoma
FSU vs Miami vs Florida
Auburn vs Alabama
ND vs Michigan vs MSU
Penn State vs Syracuse

And on and on.

Was Huckaby always a USC fan, or did he just jump on the bandwagon when they started to win recently.

The PAC 10 certainly hasn't been as competitive as the SEC and the Big 10.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Gib, fortunately USC really only carved out a special place because of their cheerleaders, not the game with ND. I cannot think of a USC/ND game in the last decade except last year that really grabbed anyones attention except the aformentioned cheerleaders. Pat noted some while leaving out many games as big or bigger than those listed. USC is a great football school, but as we like to tease the people at UT, there are many other schools that play football and take it as seriously if not more so than you guys do. ND, Penn St. Ohio State, Clemson, Michigan, Alabama, Tenn, Georgia, Auburn, Florida, Florida State Bowden years forward, Miami last 20, LSU, Texas, Oklahoma and Nebraska, even now while on the skids.

[Tom Huckaby]

Was Huckaby always a USC fan, or did he just jump on the bandwagon when they started to win recently.

Now you're getting NASTY.
My Dad attended USC post-graduate, and he had season tickets for football before I was born.  I believe I went to my first game in the early 70s... in fact... a game I clearly remember attending was a night game against Oklahoma that ended in a tie... checking the media guide... there it is, 9/29/73.  I'm sure I went to games before that but that one I do remember very clearly.  I had just turned 10.   Hell you likely flew out and got the senior discount for this game... and that was a very rare great ND season... why don't you tell me all about it?

I have been a USC fan my entire life, and they've been very good far more often than they've been bad.  Oh they have had some lean years, but then again so has the holier-than-thou institution in South Bend.  

But I again do prefer to live in the present, where my team does not suffer 47-21 losses at home.

 

[PThomas]

Gib, fortunately USC really only carved out a special place because of their cheerleaders

one of my earliest - along with seeing Rachel Welch on the Johnnie Carson show - memories of being attracted to girls was seeing some blond USC cheerleader just standing on the sideline of a game in her sweater

[Tom Huckaby]

Huckster, by any measure USC is seriously ailing in the graduation department!

But this is why it's so great to be me in these football arguments.

I attended the UNIVERSITY OF SANTA CLARA, and it's to that institution that my full loyalties lie.  Alas, we don't have a football program.  Long story there - and if you're interested I'll explain why - but we haven't had football for over 10 years now.  And when we did, during my lifetime, it was always lower division (D-II).

Thus I could give a rat's ass about The University of Southern California as a school or an institution.  I remain a fan of its football program only, and feel fine about it given my school has no football.  And while it would be nice if the graduation rate among football players was higher, well... that's not my care.  That's a school thing.  So long as the program remains active and not under NCAA sanctions, then that's really all I concern myself with.  To that end, there have been some shameful times for sure... but I feel good about the program now, and I say that knowing full well the program is under investigation regarding Reggie Bush.  If they get sanctioned for that, I shall be ashamed again.

I will tell you this though:  as opposed to a certain Indiana institution which has been caught and penalized for major infractions THREE times, my alma mater remains crystalline pure.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Graduation rates of student athletes needs to be taken with a grain of salt.  

NO, they shouldn't.
They're a barometer of how well the University/College educates their student athletes.

Simply stating a percentage doesn't tell nearly the entire story.  An important part of this statistic is the graduation rate all students of the university in question.

NO, it's not.
Private and State schools have different admissions standards.
However, scholarship athletes are seperate and apart from the general population at both types of institutions.

If athletes are graduating at about the same rate as the rest of the student body that is fair dues.  

Not really.
The student population may have financial issues which prevent graduation.  Full scholarships eliminate that pressure.


There are also other traditional factors which come into play.  

1. Academically big time private schools graduate their students at a very high rate compared to big time public schools.  

That's got nothing to do with the scholarship athlete, who're in a seperate class.

For the most part, once you are in at Harvard etc. you have to be a serious f---up to not graduate.  

Harvard doesn't offer athletic scholarships

2. Big city universities often have much lower graduation rates than outlying universities.  Its not hard to guess that citoies are full of transient types - many of which probably transfer to other schools.  

That's the general population and has nothing to do with scholarship athletes.

3. Generally, the smaller the school, the better the graduation rate.  

Athletic scholarship limits are set by the NCAA, thus every University/College gets the same amount

Huckster, by any measure USC is seriously ailing in the graduation department!

Agreed, especially as a private university.

[Mike Benham]

We're talking about Notre Dame, right, the school that Rudy went to ...

Which begs to ask another question, should we measure the greatness of one's college based on the number of movies made of the school?

[Tom Huckaby]

We're talking about Notre Dame, right, the school that Rudy went to ...

Which begs to ask another question, should we measure the greatness of one's college based on the number of movies made of the school?

Of course not, because Notre Dame wins.

But then again, Santa Clara comes off OK, given Bend it Like Beckham.

 

[Tim Pitner]

USC is a great football school, but as we like to tease the people at UT, there are many other schools that play football and take it as seriously if not more so than you guys do. ND, Penn St. Ohio State, Clemson, Michigan, Alabama, Tenn, Georgia, Auburn, Florida, Florida State Bowden years forward, Miami last 20, LSU, Texas, Oklahoma and Nebraska, even now while on the skids.

We don't have the same history or recruiting base as many of the above schools, but I'm going to throw my alma mater into the ring--the University of Iowa.  Game days in Iowa City are a treat and Kinnick Stadium is one of the country's best.  There aren't any professional sports teams in Iowa so Hawkeye football is it.  Golf tie-in:  Ryder Cupper and Cedar Rapids, Iowa native Zach Johnson is a big Hawkeye football fan.  

[Tom Huckaby]

On Iowa on forever more....

I wish I knew the rest but I know part of it goes:

Every loyal daughter loves you too! Rah! Rah! Rah!

Tim, I have nothing but love and respect for Iowa.  Always have.  The father of one of my high school buddies went there... I got quite an education in black and gold.  And I must say that first (in a long time) Rose Bowl year (late 80s?) the Iowa fans made one hell of an impression in Pasadena.

[David Wigler]

The Trojans and the Irish *ARE* college football in America. It is the most historic and important rivalry in NCAA athletics - and will be through our lifetimes.

Gib how could you.  It has been decades since the Trojans and Notre Dame were both relevant at the same time and the game meant anything.  Ohio State - Michigan is the best and most historic rivalry in football.  There is no debate.  In a close second would be either the Iron Bowl or the Red River Shoot-out.  I am not sure Notre Dame - USC makes the top five.

PS - Michigan has the highest winning percentage in college football.  Notre Dame is second.  I would guess Texas is third and would be shocked if USC was in the top five or ten.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tim, My list was not meant to be exclusive. Love of ones school and allumni passion are universal. Some schools do it better than others. One should not take anything way from the last 20 or so years of Hawkeye football. I used to listen to the replays of their games as a child when I was coming home from Baton Rouge after the Tiger games with my Dad. The Hawks were usually 2 and 9 on a good year, but they had a guy named Bernhardt playing for them for a few years there.

[Tim Pitner]

Thanks for the respect, Tom.  We usually have to fight/plead for it.  I think Iowa's first Rose Bowl under Hayden Fry was in 1981.  Iowa sent some very good teams to the Rose Bowl in the 1980s--too bad we couldn't win.  Career performances by freshmen running backs never heard from again (Jacque Robinson at UW and Eric Ball at UCLA) did us in.  

[Tom Huckaby]

David:

While I certainly owe you and your alma mater a huge debt of gratitude for last Saturday, I cannot sit idly by while you disparage USC.

But then again, it's not USC that you disparaged, really.  See, I agree it's been far too long since the USC-ND game had real national implications... but hell it's certainly not USC's fault ND has sucked for so long!

My opinion about the rivalry is this:  over the long haul, the entire history of the college game, it has to be in the top 5 overall, and the single best "inter-sectional."  All other great rivalries are local... USC-ND is unique in the intersectional respect.  And that alone makes it very, very relevant.  That and the history, that is.  But you're right, rivalries do have to be two-way to be truly fun, and ND's lack of ability to compete is putting a serious strain on things in recent years.

Mucci oughtta love that..... I can see the keys smoking with his ferocity... get out the color brackets!

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Thanks for the respect, Tom.  We usually have to fight/plead for it.  I think Iowa's first Rose Bowl under Hayden Fry was in 1981.  Iowa sent some very good teams to the Rose Bowl in the 1980s--too bad we couldn't win.  Career performances by freshmen running backs never heard from again (Jacque Robinson at UW and Eric Ball at UCLA) did us in.  

Early 80s!  That's right. Man times does fly...
We all went to the first one... sat in Iowa section... good lord was that an education.  I thought I loved Iowa before that... I came away a fan after.

 

[Kevin_Reilly]

Tom, as an Irish Catholic, maybe you should visit my church one of these days.  Two Sundays ago I sat right behind old Golden Domer #3, who recently moved to the area so his sons could play at De La Salle.

[Tim Pitner]

Tim, My list was not meant to be exclusive. Love of ones school and allumni passion are universal. Some schools do it better than others. One should not take anything way from the last 20 or so years of Hawkeye football. I used to listen to the replays of their games as a child when I was coming home from Baton Rouge after the Tiger games with my Dad. The Hawks were usually 2 and 9 on a good year, but they had a guy named Bernhardt playing for them for a few years there.

No worries, Tiger.  I'm not so delusional that I believe Iowa belongs with the Michigans and Ohio States of the world.  I just posted about Iowa because I do think Iowa City and Kinnick Stadium are great and under-appreciated places to watch a game.  Iowa fans are very loyal but maybe not quite as rabid as SEC fans--my goodness, you guys really get whipped up into a lather (which is what college football is all about).  Iowa is 2-1 against SEC bowl opponents in the last three years, including one that must have been rather painful for LSU.

[T_MacWood]

As much as it pains me Notre Dame will be back (on par with the elite programs talent wise). They aren't back yet...but they will be eventually based upon their recruting trends (sooner than later). That being said Weiss is not the genius they believe him to be.

I'm a little surprised by the poor memory of USC fan. There was a time not so long ago (before Petie) when they were on the outside looking in. If I was USC fan (Huck) I'd take a lower profile...boasting after the 3rd game has a way of coming back to haunt you. They're good but they aren't that good. Nobody is this year.

That being said based on their schedule I'd be shocked if USC was not in the championship game...hopefully against TOSU, although I think our youthfull defense combined with our schedule might be too much. Ohio State, Michigan, Texas, Auburn, LSU and Florida will all probably have at least one loss and an undefeated team from the Big East (WVU or L'Ville) will  end up in that game...which will be a joke IMO.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Another Yahoo story about USC

I wonder what the replacement signals will be?

- The "valet, please bring the Porsche" signal

- The "waiter, here is my Platinum Amex" signal

- The "huh, what is a classroom?" signal

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Arb's,
I agree with Pat here regarding academic standards, as well as 4 years means four years, not five dressed in a red shirt for one of them. gib surmizes the rivialry pretty well, and it explains further why Rees Jones despises us so much!

Shivas, Care to repeat the Northwestern score from a week and a half ago?

Here, I'll remind you:
[size=10]34[/size][size=10]17[/size]

Now can we please end this incessant football talk and get talking about something more important--like the Dodgers unfreekingbelievable come from behind three times win?

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom, as an Irish Catholic, maybe you should visit my church one of these days.  Two Sundays ago I sat right behind old Golden Domer #3, who recently moved to the area so his sons could play at De La Salle.

I heard about that... that is that his sons would be going to DLS... funny thing is he and Tim Brown are among the TINY few Domers I do actually like.  And I say that as a Ram fan for oh so many years... I just can't bring myself to hate ole #3 / #16.

In any case, Irish Catholics outside of those who either:

a) actually attended ND; or
b) have parents or siblings or relatives who did; or
c) live in the immediate South Bend area

should be ashamed of themselves for hopping on the ND bandwagon.  We all have local schools we could and should support.  And yes, that includes you Tommy Naccarato.  But as much as we diverge re college football, we are brothers in baseball.  So oh yes, all hail those slugging Dodgers!

 

[Tommy_Naccarato]

That New Hampshire sure is tough!