Klein's K Klub Kabbash for the Ryder Kup

[Tommy_Naccarato]

The former is so inevitably biased, and the latter is paid for his critical evaluations.

Lou,
Sounds more like really bitter, sour and rotting lemons for being for something else not even concerned with the Ryder cup or my opinions.

To further explain the point of all this is the blatant commercialism and the less then interesting design of a golf course that has as much business being in Ireland as the Pope has giving a sermon inside a mosque.

This entire event has become a lesson in just how far the sport has regressed in it's spirit as well as the attitude of the players, promoters and governing bodies that over-see this once very special event. I think any REAL critical review, which you'll see soon enough--the major writers of our day calling out the deficiencies of venues such as the K Klub as more then just biased and critical thought from a few yuckety yucks who have rained on your parade.

Get over it!

[George Pazin]

I've been to two Ryder Cups (Valderrama and Oakland Hills) and I have to say that it is the worst spectator sport ever.  You can't see anything, because there are so many spectators and hardly any golf being played on the course.  The most fun at a Ryder Cup, though this will sound heretical, is in a corporate hospitality tent.  There, you can see the action, hear a roar and get well fed and well lubricated.  All at the same time.  I won't say that I'll never go again, but it is not that fun on the golf course as a spectator.  So the K Club, if it has enough area for the tents, will do just fine.  The golf course, regrettably, is far down the list at a Ryder Cup.

(emphasis added)

I think I agree with the sentiment behind this. This past weekend I had the good fortune to attend the 84 Lumber at Mystic Rock; it was my 2nd 84, and along with the 2003 Am at Oakmont, boosted my total big events attended to 3. I was struck by the fact that, unless you are specifically studying the course, as I was at Oakmont, live spectating golf is really not very good. You generally see one end of the action, and usually not all that close up, either.

My brother in law asked me if I wanted to go back on Sunday, but really, sadly, it's generally better to watch on TV. Besides studying the course, the only other positive thing about live spectating I can really see is the ability to follow someone not generally televised. I did get to see Villegas fly a drive past where others ended up, only to have JB Holmes fly one past his in the very next group.

That Villegas guy is built kinda like Huck.

[Lou_Duran]

Tommy, Tommy, Tommy.  Here you go again getting personal.  I am not that anti-Christ Pascuzzo.  And if I was a golf course, I would not be Sandpines, a 1 in your estimation (though Golf Digest voted it best new public course one year, but what do they know!).

Relax.  I was just pulling your leg (did you not see the  ?).  There is nothing to get over, and to the best of my recollection, it has been decades since attending my last parade.  BTW, I am not big on lemonade either, regardless of the condition of the lemons.

I look forward to watching the Ryder Cup and rooting for the American team.  The venue is not all that important to me, nor do I believe that it is critical to meeting the objectives set forth by the founder.  The quality of the competition or the fellowship it fosters should not suffer as a result of it going to the K-Club (as opposed to your favorite Irish links course).

As to the sport regressing, well, I think that this is mostly in your mind.  To the best of my knowledge, golf is becoming more global and democratic.  Most people don't have a Chicken Little/Humpty-Dumpty perspective toward golf as a sport or industry.  In fact, many believe (myself included) that we are in a new "Golden Age" with wonderful courses of all types coming on line.  While golf may not have evolved as we would individually like in all instances, I believe that the overall trends are positive.

Sorry that I can't be gloomy and condemning of the European authorities.  Go USA!

[Paul Richards]

I thought Brad's analysis was spot-on.  Except, after reading what he wrote, how on Earth did he give it an overall '6'?


I left the K-Club scratching my head - what a disappointment.


It realy s*$%s that money drives the Ryder Cup venue.  It absolutely should have been played on one of the great Irish links courses.

[Adam Clayman]

Paul, I don't recall Brad giving a lower rating. If that's any indication of how low he values it. In my stint on the panel I have found it rare to find anything below a 5.5.

I perceived him actualy giving it a rating as some sort of esoteric humor.

[Brad Klein]

Adam, in print in my Golfweek reviews over the last four years I have given several handfulls of under 6s, including a recent 4 for an RTJ Trail Course in Alabama - Schoolmaster. I tend to focus on the better layouts, or tournaments venues, but there are have been some major disappointments.

[ForkaB]

I've been to two Ryder Cups (Valderrama and Oakland Hills) and I have to say that it is the worst spectator sport ever.  You can't see anything, because there are so many spectators and hardly any golf being played on the course.  The most fun at a Ryder Cup, though this will sound heretical, is in a corporate hospitality tent.  There, you can see the action, hear a roar and get well fed and well lubricated.  

I'll third this, and it works for Open championships too.  Unless you are a real groupie and want to see Villegas (or whomever) reasonably up-close and impersonal, get thee to the hospitality tents.  I'd recommend Bollinger.  They sent me a Christmas card declaring me a Chevalier du Champagne after one famous session.  Can't remember the year or the course, alas......

[Paul Richards]

Bob

What does this mean?
>Are you wearing a hair shirt today?

[Eric Franzen]

Bob

What does this mean?
>Are you wearing a hair shirt today?

I think Sir Huntley basically is saying "Dude, have you turned into a hippie?"

[Richard Phinney]

I think it's safe to say that there is a tremendous degree of cynacism in Ireland itself about the K Club as a venue, though a grudging admission that perhaps the great event wouldn't have come to Ireland at all without it. Also, I think for golfers in Dublin the green fee is a bit like the inflated rates you find on the back of hotel doors....hardly anyone pays the full tariff, but play the course nonetheless on one or another corporate outing...I've met golfers of rather modest means who have somehow played the course a number of times.

Out of interest, would anyone on the list rate other post WWII Irish parkland courses substantially higher than the K Club?  And which ones?

[Tim Pitner]

Count me among those who wish that the Ryder Cup were being played on a links course in Ireland, but . . . I'm also tremendously excited about watching the Ryder Cup.  To me, it's one of the best events in sports and easily the best golf event--matchplay, a team event, U.S. vs Europe--it doesn't get any better than that.  Well, I do miss Seve and Faldo.  Europe doesn't seem to have any giants anymore.  Perhaps Monty.  Let's not be too cynical--it should be a great event.

[Lou_Duran]

Eric,

You got me mixed up with Dan King in his younger days.

Paul Richards,

I think that Bob was inferring in his so droll, idiosyncratic way to my frame of mind when I penned the first reply, that I was irritated by something like wearing a hair shirt (which in the past were worn by some religious people as an act of penance).

For purposes of understanding your GW scale and out sheer curiousity, what rating would you give Beverly?  And the K-Club?

[Bob_Huntley]

Bob

What does this mean?
>Are you wearing a hair shirt today?

Paul,

In recent times, people are sometimes said to be "wearing a hairshirt" when they make life unnecessarily difficult for themselves.

I said it in jest to Lou Duran because sometimes he just seems to take a contrarian track to be ornery.

Bob

[Paul_Turner]

I believe a lot of the classic clubs/courses of GB&I rejected the Ryder Cup when it was a one horse race.

They missed their chance.

[Lou_Duran]

Bob, Bob, Bob,

There your go again .....  Accusing me of stealing BarneyF'/JakaB's thunder?  Nah, I would be but a mere amateur in comparison.

I am afflicted with some pet peeves which, when combined with a bit of extra time, can work to my detriment.  I was having fun with Tommy (I have no issues with Klein's analysis of the K-Club) while at the same time trying to point out what should be obvious- that the Ryder Cup is not about showcasing golf architecture.

But you are right, I do have a contrarian streak in me.  Instinctually, I have issues with both the elites and the populists.  We have an abundant number of these on this site, though they can be found interchangeably depending on the issue.

Seriously though, do you think that the selection of the K-Club will be detrimental to the Ryder Cup and the game of golf?  How many people really give a twit if it was held there or at Royal County Downs?  How much does the venue affect the competition?  Would a less expansive site where the massive, partisan crowds are right on top of the play lead to better play?  If so, why didn't the Europeans jump on it?  Certainly not because of a relatively measly one million pounds.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Paul T, That's not really the case.  When it was a one-horse race they went to:

1929 Moortown
1933 Southport and Ainsdale
1937 Southport and Ainsdale
1949 Ganton
1953 Wentworth West
1957 Lindrick
1961 R Lytham
1965 R Birkdale
1969 R Birkdale
1973 Muirfield
1977 R Lytham

Of those the home side only won 3.

Since GB & I metamorphosed into Europe they've been to:

1981 Walton Heath
1985 The Belfry
1989 The Belfry
1993 The Belfry
1997 Valderrama
2002 The Belfry

The Belfry has yielded two home wins, a tie and a home loss, Valderrama yielded a home win while classic Walton Heath yielded a serious home defeat.  They've done far better since playing on 'rubbish' courses.

[Paul_Turner]

Mark

But didn't Muirfield and Portmarnock reject it?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Muirfield took on one.  I've no idea whether or not Portmarnock rejected it.  As I said, so did Alwoodley.

[Jack_Marr]

I was at the practice day today. The K Club has no soul. Just a pretty golf course. Hopefully the crowds and the golf will make the event.

[ForkaB]

Well said, Mark.  The average Irish (or British) golfer would much rather play at the K Club (or in Spain or Florida) than at Balybunnion or Portmarnock.  They tolerate the Open, but for the other 51 weeks of the year they dream of Benidorm and Myrtle Beach...........

Not the average British golfers I play with.  I'll agree there are many British golfers who'd rather visit Iberia than Fife with their clubs but many others have more refined tastes.  Whether they are a majority, I don't know.

To the extent that you are right I wonder if this has changed over the years with the advent of live US Tour events every weekend on Murdochvision?

You are lucky, Mark to have found GCA sophisticates as your playing partners!  The phenomenon I notice has been going on for over 20 years, well before global domination was a gleam in Rupert's eye........

[erichunter]

Seriously though, do you think that the selection of the K-Club will be detrimental to the Ryder Cup and the game of golf?  How many people really give a twit if it was held there or at Royal County Downs?  How much does the venue affect the competition?  Would a less expansive site where the massive, partisan crowds are right on top of the play lead to better play?  If so, why didn't the Europeans jump on it?  Certainly not because of a relatively measly one million pounds.

It isn't just the $1M pounds for this week, Smurfit agreed to host a European Tour event for 10 years.  As more and more Europeans play on the US Tour, the European Tour has leveraged the Ryder Cup to salvage their schedule and keep some of their players on the Continent.  See K Club, Valderrama, Celtic Manor, Gleneagles hosting annual events on the European Tour.

I don't think anyone could argue that the K Club will take away anything from the Ryder Cup but rather what an opportunity (lost) to highlight a great course and expose golf's largest worldwide audience to superior architecture.

[Aidan Bradley]

Out of interest, would anyone on the list rate other post WWII Irish parkland courses substantially higher than the K Club?  And which ones?

Richard,

Carton House (Montgomerie) and The Heritage, easy picks. Ironically all three end with reachable par 5"s where water comes in to play.

[Lou_Duran]

"It isn't just the $1M pounds for this week, Smurfit agreed to host a European Tour event for 10 years.  As more and more Europeans play on the US Tour, the European Tour has leveraged the Ryder Cup to salvage their schedule and keep some of their players on the Continent.  See K Club, Valderrama, Celtic Manor, Gleneagles hosting annual events on the European Tour."

"I don't think anyone could argue that the K Club will take away anything from the Ryder Cup but rather what an opportunity (lost) to highlight a great course and expose golf's largest worldwide audience to superior architecture."

Eric,

So, are you suggesting that the benefits noted in your second paragraph outweigh those in the first?  If the European Tour has found a way to partner with certain clubs for the bettement of its various stakeholders, would you have it sacrifice these arrangements to expose a relatively small segment of the golf population to "superior architecture"?

I know that it is hard to understand why others don't hold our values, but there are many serious, frequent golfers who don't "get" or appreciate what we think of as great architecture.  I dare say that to most members at my former club (Great Southwest in TX), Sand Hills, a course I hold in very high regard, would take a back seat to a number of courses on the Robert Trent Jones Trail.   At Barton Creek in Austin, the Coore & Crenshaw course is by far the least favorite of the four (two by Fazio, one by Palmer), even with a lower price.  Go figure!
   

[SL_Solow]

This thread is a classic case of people arguing past each other.  Nobody seems to think that the K Club has outstanding architecture.  Nobody believes it was selected because it is an outstanding golf course.  Everyone believes that economic considerations were the primary motivation for the selection of the K Club including the guaranty, the ability to accomodate large crowds, the willingness to hold future tournaments and who knows what else.  Nobody seems to think that the lack of architectural merit will keep the event from being an interesting contest.  So I'm not sure what Lou is disputing.  By the same token, there is nothing wrong with Brad pointing out the deficiencies in the architecture and the availability of more interesting venues.  After all, he is an architecture critic; its his job.  Moreover, there is nothing wrong with others wishing that in a more perfect world, an exhibition that was originally conceived as a means of promoting golf would be held on a more interesting course.  This has nothing to do with elitism or populism, rather it is a simple judgment that an already interesting contest would be even more interesting on a better venue.  Since no one has yet  suggested that the K Club approaches the other suggested venues in terms of architectural interest, it is hard to argue this point.  However, we live in this world where artistic considerations are often tempered or outweighed by commercial ones.  So there is really nothing to argue about unless you dispute the basic analysis of the K Club contained in the review.

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