[George Blunt]

As a (hopefully) unbiased spectator I ask the following question: has the Ryder Cup improved golf, as a game and as a sporting contest?As a game, undoubtly so.  The shotmaking that is on display under enormous pressure raises the standard to hitherto unknown levels.  The passion, and the commitment to the team is exhilirating and makes the spine tingle - even to an Aussie watching at 4 in the morning.As a sporting contest, definitely not.  The actions of the home crowd, whether American or European, would suggest that the principles of fairness, courtesy and respect all receive a temporary suspension from the game that we love for three days.(Minimum!)I see no real difference, apart from a few indiscretions by the Americans on Sunday, between the Americans on home soil and the Europeans at home.  It seems that it is OK to stir the crowd to the point of boiling over in order to gain an advantage.  This has been allowed to pass in other professional sports such as soccer and hoops, but is that what we want for the game of golf?  Do we think that golf should be at their level in terms of crowd behaviour? Do we admire the actions of the professional sportsman in those other codes?If my child was starting to play the game I would not want them to look at the Ryder Cup as an example of the etiquette that rules the game.So, do the ends justify the means?  Should the actions and reactions continue unchecked and remain acceptable precedent?P.S  I am under 40 years of age and still have my own teeth.

[Ran Morrissett]

Was it worth it? The answer is no, which is a great shame given their superb play. Bob Jones felt there is no victory without dignity and he was right.

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Now, before we go trashing the American's behavior (I guess it's too late!), I'm a little surprised that all of the die hard lovers of the game, the rules and it's traditions are missing something there. Let's not forget that we saw some truly unprecedented behavior from the Europeans this week. Namely, hideously slow play.Not that this excuses the extreme and rude American reaction on the 17th, but the walking off of yardages from 130 yards out, and the ridiculous pace of play by the Europeans has a far more detrimental effect on the spirit of the matches and the game, than a spur of the moment reaction to one of the great putts in match history. It may or may not be gamesmanship to play so slowly, but it is dispresectful, selfish and sets an awful precedent. And lets not forget that the less than perfect behavior, by spectators and even team members, started in earnest with Seve and the crowds at Valderrama. Once again, that doesn't excuse what happened or the excessive heckling of Montgomerie, but such behavior has happened on the other side of the pond and it's now part of the matches, good or bad. And lets not forget that the Scots erupted into "the wave" as Justin Leornard was trying to play the final hole of the British Open this year, something far more insulting, annoying and disrespectful than yesterday's reaction (frankly, the buses that were bothering Olazabol as he tried to putt seemed more offensive to me...who the hell is leaving the property at that point?).The Ryder Cup is the most interesting event in golf, particularly as stroke play and the various Tour's drab idea of entertainment (mediocre courses, uniform setup conditions, corporate influence overrules everything else) overwhelm the game. Sure, we'd like to see better sportsmanship and more knowledgable galleries, but we also want to see great golfers perform under incredible pressure and to play passionately. The Ryder Cup and the majors are our last hope for that kind of golf, and I'm willing to excuse some minor setbacks for the overall good of golf.

[Bill Morrissett]

Is this two wrongs make a right theory?As for slow play, several of the Europeans noted they did that to allow for the crowds to settle down after the fist pumping American team had stirred them up.Bring on the Dunhill Cup for interesting golf AND  first class sportsmanship.

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Bill, No it is definitely not the two wrongs make a right theory. It is simply the idea that the nature of the event and spectators behavior started largely in Europe, and has been fostered there. American galleries are joining in the atmosphere, and the players fed off it and made a mistake. I just think it is funny that of all the unsportsmanlike or disturbing things to happen in golf in the last ten years, that a show of emotion (which was certainly rude, but hardly the end of the world), brings out so much frustration from people about what was a stunning display of talent under pressure. It would be nice to see the golf world get upset about more pressing matters like the USGA's apparent surrender on the ball/equipment issue (even with $150 million to use to fight), the cost to play, the lack of decent architecture...well you get the idea.By the way, did anyone notice that on the 17th hole at The Country Club, players were hitting flip wedges into the green, and 8 irons at the most? The fairway contour, according to the club, has not changed. Yet, in the 88 Open, I remember players laying up next to the bunkers because it was iffy whether or not they could be carried. But the ball isn't going any further and the equipment isn't any better...the players are just better and in better condition. Right.Geoff

[Ran Morrissett]

Geoff,Great point on the 17th - I was thinking the same thing. Still, I love seeing a hole of that length at that stage in the round. What exactly did Rees do to that hole? Did he add the second fairway bunker? Regardless, it looks like it has already been rendered pointless for the pros (and they are the reason it was modified in the first place).

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Ran,My understanding is that Rees pushed the bunker forward in order to address the longer players of 1988. And of course, he couldn't resist giving it a little Jones family cookie cutter "clover" touch, a family theme has has since abandoned in his quest for the blandest looking bunkers in golf. I'm going to ask Ben Crenshaw and Bill Spence (TCC's super) about the contour widths, tee location etc... Because it is fascinating to see the differences from 88 to 99. Yes there was more rough in 88 and more at stake in terms of stroke play. But, to see flip sand wedges being hit in, and duck hook drives carrying the bunkers...hmmm, makes you wonder. And then to pull out some Frank Thomas quotes from recent years and be told that we are imagining such things about the distance the ball is going and be told that there is just a little change in recent years, well it's insulting.Geoff

[TEPaul]

It is interesting what Geoff and Ran say about modern equipment and how different holes #17 and #18 played in the Ryder  compared to the '88 Open.It has been so many years since I was there I can't remember what the holes look like and I can't recall the '88 Open, and television doesn't really visually show a hole to me properly. I recall the 17th is 370yds and the 18th is 436yds (am I right?). Despite the fact that it is undoubtably true that the ball is getting much farther out there, I liked the way those two holes played from a strategic and setup standpoint. Think back on what kind of shots and options the determinate groups were facing, and despite the added distance of the drives, the design, green complexes, pin positions and the rough setup offered a great deal of excitement and thought for the players and fans. Although maybe only a SW to #17, look at the O'Meara result under pressure from the rough from 108yds (surprising), the result of Olazabal from the rough (not bad) and  Harrington and Leonard's approaches from the fairway getting close to the pin and spinnng back down the slope to 45-50 ft.(intense pin positon for a short or longer shot). That looks to me like a setup and green that is perfectly defensible and thought provoking even to a SW. Again, I can't really remember the 18th but look at the variety of results. Am I right in thinking the 18th green is fronted with bunkering? If so, it needs a 6 iron or less to have the option of getting close to a short pin (how could a 4+ iron hold the green even from the fairway?). Otherwise we wouldn't have had a shot like Maggert's on Saturday or the great shots of Olazabal, Montgomerie and Leonard on Sunday. I think I recall  a statement by Johnny Miller that any ball in the rough on the right hadn't gotten over the bunkers (Stewart) or held the green. This sounds to me like some pretty good risk reward variety and strategic options from tee to green for the players, given, again, the design,  the green complexes, pin postions and rough setup.The proof of a design and a course setup is really no more than what the players face, the variety of their thought processes and the variety of the ultimate results. Distance is certainly a consideration, but in this case increased distance did not seem to detract from the excitement of the competition. There was nothing remotely boring about the shots selected and played; the players had a lot of shot options and touch and go recovery options (no automatic high rough or forest chipouts) and that is what good design and setup is all about!. I'm a big fan of Ben Crenshaw. Somehow his intelligent and sensible hand seemed to span every aspect of this competition. We will all remember the intense drama, the emotion and the incredibly improbable (fate!?) victory. Somehow underlying all this might have been something as mundane as his insistence on a reasonable difficult, but reasonable course setup with a wonderfully designed old golf course.On emotional exuberance on the 17th, if that or crowd reaction overshadows those incredible three days of the '99 Ryder Cup, it will be a tragedy!What the crowd did in Valderama or Brooline is really meaningless (unless you're a sociologist). The people at the course and around the world just had a memorable vicarious experience into the minds, hearts and souls of twenty four world class golfers. The European captain and players know they won it and lost it and the American captain and players know they lost it and won it. What went on outside the ropes or with a 130 yard walk to a green or a thirty second emotional outburst, I'm sure is no big deal to them. It would be nice if the rest of us could leave it at that.

[Tom_Egan]

To:  TEPaul     Re: you post of September 27 on this site, my compliments.  On the subjects of course set-up, Crenshaw's wisdom and player and crowd decorum, your comments are so sensible that I agree that enough is enough.

[Gib_Papazian]

Please refer to page 126 in Scotland's Gift on an inter-club match between Chicago GC and Cleveland. Yes, they perhaps did not take it seriously enough, but the spirit of the competition and the fostering of good relations, friendships and goodwill tells the story of the game as it was meant to beplayed as a team sport. I have seen some behavior over the last few years during local club matches that makes my stomach turn. Same thing at the high school level where I also coach at my alma mater. This kind of "win at all costs" and damn the sportmanship nonsense is bleeding into the game we love so dearly. The Ryder Cup is a conduit for this pollution of our traditional decorum - after all, the public takes their cues from the pros.  

[Tom_Doak]

You guys almost ruined a tremendously exciting day of golf for me with your hand-wringing, but I just won't have it.Except for their moment of exuberance over Leonard's putt at 17, I thought the Americans were generally model sports.  Mickelson went out of his way to commend Sandelin after their match; Stewart obviously felt for Montgomerie and the jeers he'd endured from the crowd; and O'Meara's concession of the putt to Harrington on 17, because he didn't want him to have to make it with the crowd going nuts and with the whole shebang still in doubt, was much more noble than the putt Nicklaus gave to Tony Jacklin 30 years ago.The galleries were bad, especially to Monty, but I'd have to put a lot of the blame for that on the press and the pre-tournament hype.  And it did seem on Sunday like some of the U.S. players were overacting the part in response to media criticism that they weren't "patriotic" enough.Still, the quality of the golf won out in the end.  I honestly would have been just as happy had the Euros won -- because we still act like the last five Ryder Cups were a fluke, and because it means so much more to Harrington and Jiminez than it does to O'Meara and Duval.  But Leonard's back-nine charge ought to go right up there with anything Arnie ever did.As for the course, I've always thought it was a bit overrated -- there are some terrific holes, but others are just long and hard with a bit of long grass around them, and the short par-4's are nothing special.  But I really enjoyed watching the boys play 17 and 18.  Rees got criticized for rebuilding 17 green in '88, but it was amazing to watch how few of the guys could pitch-and-run it up to the back tier when they needed to.  And 18 was a great finishing hole, because you could see a 3 to win as well as a 5 to lose.

[Ran Morrissett]

TD,I will show you sportsmanship this weekend when I fist pump my way to a record score at Lost Dunes (Ted S. informs me I still hold the record at Yeamans) and then at Crystal when I drain a long putt for eagle on 17 and John M. rushes across the green to high five me.My game from two months ago is still razor sharp, so be warned.Cheers,

[Ted_Sturges]

Ran,What color is the sky in your world?

[Lloyd Bickerton]

Hey Ran With all your High-Fiving, why don't you tell your friends about how well you played the 16th on the composite course at Royal Melbourne?Play well my friend.

[Ran Morrissett]

Lloyd is referring to an unfortunate shot that landed on the preceding hole's green, some 15 yards diagonally off the tee. I hoped the man behind us had not seen the shot so I left the ball there rather than risk complete humiliation. Of course, back in the clubhouse some thirty minutes later, the man was kind enough to return the ball to me.

[TEPaul]

Ran:      The question is can you execute that kind of shot on demand? If so humiliation can be discounted. Reminds me of something that my old man told me once about spotting Bobby Riggs (a scratch player, by the way, who carried something like a 14 handicap) practicing shanks on a corner of a course in Long Island at 6 in the morning. I'm sorry I never asked him what he was doing driving around at 6 in the morining.

[John Morrissett]

Ran--Good luck with a record score at LD.  Just remember that David Eger will have played three rounds there by the time you arrive.  Why don't you just settle for being the second low Morrissett Saturday?

[Doug Wright]

I found this thread buried deep in the GCA.com archives (p. 891   ) and thought the gnashing of teeth herein as a quaint counterpoint to the sad state of affairs extant with Team USA. Who'd have thought at the time that this would be the last victory for the US side as of 2006, with two blowouts to boot?

PS  TE Paul's post above was probably one of his first of 23,000+ and counting...

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