News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2006, 10:54:57 AM »
Pat Mucci and Bob Huntley...rescpectfully, you guys are full of do-do!

Whether you claim there are "many" or "several" or that they are all over the place....there are DAMN FEW 55+ year olds knocking it 300 yards plus...
We are no longer a country of laws.

DMoriarty

Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2006, 11:48:54 AM »
Mr. Moriarity...I posted stats from 3 Tours going back to 1998....the average drive on all three tours increased about 15 yards over that span of time.

Craig, Please call me David.

I saw your posting, but you are using a limited window of stats.   For example, if you extend the numbers back just three years to 1995 then you see that the distance gain is close over 26 yards on the US PGA Tour.

Second, if you look at the facts historically, you will see that distances increased at a rate of less then 1/2 yard per year for around 70 years starting around 1920, so even your limited window of facts is still quite alarming.

Quote
As for conditioning of todays golfers vs. those of 15-20 yeras ago...are you really going to argue that yesterdays golfers were as conditioned as todays?

No, I am not going to argue that.  I have no need to.  Better conditioning or not, the conditioning argument cannot explain the big jumps in distance which correspond directly to introductions in new technologies.

I ask you again.  How does your conditioning argument explain the facts I listed?   How can it explain such jumps in individual distances over such a short time period?  

Facts please.  

Quote

And I wonder how old Jack was when he first hit with a swing monitor?

Ahhh . . . more anecdote, storytelling, and vague allusions . . .

Facts Please.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2006, 11:49:39 AM by DMoriarty »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2006, 12:03:49 PM »

Pat Mucci and Bob Huntley...rescpectfully, you guys are full of do-do!

Whether you claim there are "many" or "several" or that they are all over the place....there are DAMN FEW 55+ year olds knocking it 300 yards plus...

Craig,

If there's ONE, it's ONE too many.

Years ago the best golfers in the world, in their prime, couldn't carry the ball 300 yards, and now guys getting ready for Medicare are doing it.

Buzz Peel, Bob Hullender, Rick Barry are three who come to mind quicky.

You seem to be in denial of the fact.
Perhaps living in a remote or sparsely populated area shields you from what's going on the the world of golf.

A dear friend of mine, whom I was introduced to in a fist fight 46 years ago as a freshman in college, has two sons in their twenties who play amateur golf.  Both can carry the ball 300+ on their drives.  46 years ago, there wasn't an amateur in his twenties who could come within 50 to 80 yards of some of their drives.

Please take your head out of the Montana sand and smell the coffee. ;D

There is a distance problem.
[/color]

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2006, 08:17:13 PM »
...
[size=5x]I'm told by the Tech Center that a trajectory like that compared to the old trajectory might gain a high swing speed player app 25-30 yards more carry distance compared to the old high spin rate balls hit at the same swing speed.[/size][/i][/b]
...


IMHO this is the most important thing you need to know in all the discussions of the ball on this site. And, the information is reported to come from the USGA. This is what I have always believed, but this is the first time I have seen it specifically reputedly verified by USGA. Tom, if you have been writing this before, I'm sorry I missed it.

On another note. I can drive it 300 yards plus at age 55 plus. However, if I want to score respectably, I don't even try. Plus, I would guess only about 1 in 25 of these bombs would end up in the fairway. I last played in a scramble on July 4th which gave me the freedom to attempt this and managed to get one playable 300 yarder on an uphill hole. I was hitting a low spin ball of course.
 
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2006, 08:26:17 PM »
"You know Tom Paul likes to get on my case when I question the USGA, but after listening to the Enron folks, the mutual fund folks (Putnam, etc.), Arthur Anderson, etc. I can't find any difference between what they sounded like and reading this babble from Walter Davis.
Sorry Tom."

You should be sorry, Garland, because basically that's nothing much more than a bullshit statement.

...

Tom,

Your response makes me wonder if you read the pieces posted on Geoff's site. I swear, if you are Republican, you would be reminded of Bill Clinton. If you are Democrat, you would be reminded of George W. Bush. I suppose if you are independed, you would be reminded of both of them.

 :)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

DMoriarty

Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2006, 09:15:29 PM »
Well, Dave, 4 of the top 6 big jumps at the top are elite players who hung onto short drivers as long as possible because they were the elite players in the world, so why fix it, but all added an inch and a half to their drivers to try to keep up with Tiger when they thought they actually had a chance.

Everybody else (who had no chance to keep up with Tiger in the first place) had already gone to 45 inch drivers to try to keep up with Ernie, Phil, Vijay and Retief!  What were they supposed to do, go to 47"?   ;D  

Shivas, when I asked for facts I didnt mean you were just supposed to make up facts!  And if you didnt make it up, then how do you explain the distance increases from No. 5 on down?  The Atkins diet?
__________________

Here is another fact . . . The ProV1x was introduced in 2003.  

Here is another fact . . . Based on my research it appears that of  the top 20 gainers, all but two played the ProV1x.  
One of those two was Corey Pavin and I suspect he had just switched to the ProV1 in 2003. (I could be wrong about this, I couldnt find the specific time he switched but it was somewhere around the beginning of 2003.)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2006, 09:17:17 PM by DMoriarty »

TEPaul

Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2006, 09:38:06 PM »
Garland:

Sorry, but I guess I really didn't read you post carefully enough. Who the hell is Walter Davis?  ;)

With those war headline red letter words you just wrote you should also remember that a high swing speed player using the same equipment as today probably could've hit a low spin rate Pinnacle back in 1980 with that much more carry distance too.

Should the USGA have banned the low spin rate Pinnacle back then because of that additional carry distance?  ;)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2006, 09:45:11 PM by TEPaul »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2006, 12:02:31 AM »
...
With those war headline red letter words you just wrote you should also remember that a high swing speed player using the same equipment as today probably could've hit a low spin rate Pinnacle back in 1980 with that much more carry distance too.

Should the USGA have banned the low spin rate Pinnacle back then because of that additional carry distance?  ;)

I know the Pinnacle distance. I was hitting TopFlites a long long way in the early 70s, so the distances the pros hit their balls today has been no surprise to me. My impression is that the Pinnacle type balls never created much of a problem, because the lack of spin prevented them from being used by the very good golfers. Therefore, in the past I have not considered regulating them, and they would be acceptable under my slope limit proposal.

What do you think? Can a Pinnacle be used effectively by the highest level players? I know Tiger demands a higher spinning ball even off the driver.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2006, 12:23:53 AM »
...
OK, so when Tour players went from balata to Spinning Rocks, they gained more yards than slower swingers who went from Non-Spinning Rocks to Spinning Rocks.  So what?  They started with different balls.  Of course the Tour players' gain is going to be more -- because they started out hitting marshmallows relative to the 90 mph crowd.



Here's what Billy Mayfair has to say about that "So What?"

Quote
Everyone is talking about testing the new driver heads for illegal COR, etc., but I think the golf ball is making more of a difference in the game than anything else is. The golf ball has changed the game more than the driver has. I play the Titleist ProV1x ball, and it doesn't curve as much anymore like they used to. You just swing as hard as you want at it and it goes straight at the flag. Working the ball is still important on certain shots, but it's not as much of a must thing anymore. One of the guys I remember who used to work the ball the best in the world was the late Payne Stewart. He brought the ball in high, low, left-to-right, right-to-left, every which way possible. That was what made him such a great player. These days I don't think working the ball would help him as much, because you don't need to shape the ball like you used to because the ball just flies so straight. I think 95% of the guys on Tour would say that the changes in the golf ball today have made a bigger difference in the game than anything else has.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

DMoriarty

Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2006, 01:51:04 AM »
You want a fact?  If you first played the ProV1x in 2003, it was in play on Tour for most if not all of 2002.  Ever hear of a prototype?  Don't let that blow too much of a gaping flesh wound in an otherwise good theory... ;)

Shivas, the ProV1x was introduced to the tour players beginning 2003. You may recall the big titleist hitters-- especially Ernie Els-- being shocked by the new ball at Kapalua in 2003.  It wasnt available to me until many months later.  Check the old articles.  

My theory is (gaping flesh) wound free.  Your were shooting blanks.  Your "fact" is D  O  A.  

One more thing, Dave, that you really need to wrap your arms around is the fact that there are a lot of variables in this. [YADA YADA YADA] . . . have you ever asked yourse'f about these other factors?
[YADA YADA YADA]

Your confusing yourself, Shivas.  All I've done is post facts.  Instead of accepting them as such you are fighting your own demons, not mine.  

And what about your FACT(ors) which explain away this huge jump in distance by the big hitters between 2002 and 2003?
Let's see . . . "Who cares?" . . .  "So what" . . . "Why shouldn't they?"  These arent factors.  They are lameass-junior-high-comebacks.  Next time try "I know you are, but what am I?" and that old standard "it takes one to know one."

Out of courtesy, I'll briefly address your pointless points in your little diatribe:

-- I dont care how far the Pros hit it.  But I do care about the growing gap between long hitting and short hitting amateurs and the pressures that puts on the architecture and the game.  I just work with whatever stats I can find.

-- Everybody does NOT hit it farther than they used to, all things being equal.  Some even hit these new balls shorter.  I certainly hit the ProV1x shorter, as do most golfers.  

-- The problem is that long hitters and short hitters are supposed to fit on the same course, and if the gap grows too much they dont.  

Sleep it off, my friend.  You'll feel better in the morning.  
« Last Edit: September 10, 2006, 02:05:47 AM by DMoriarty »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2006, 06:44:05 AM »

You want a fact?  

If you first played the ProV1x in 2003, it was in play on Tour for most if not all of 2002.  Ever hear of a prototype?  Don't let that blow too much of a gaping flesh wound in an otherwise good theory... ;)

Shivas,

That's not true.

Prototypes can't be played.

In order to be played a ball must be submitted to and approved by the USGA.

After a period of analysis and approval, the USGA then includes that ball in their list of conforming balls, eligible for play.



As the former Chairman of the I&B committee I would imagine that Walter Driver is well versed in all issues relating to the ball and implements.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2006, 06:45:02 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

TEPaul

Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2006, 08:03:45 AM »
" My impression is that the Pinnacle type balls never created much of a problem, because the lack of spin prevented them from being used by the very good golfers. Therefore, in the past I have not considered regulating them, and they would be acceptable under my slope limit proposal.
What do you think? Can a Pinnacle be used effectively by the highest level players?"

Garland:

No, it could not. The Pinnacle type ball simply feels way too hard to good players. But that had little to do with their tee shots and only related to approach shots and shots on and around greens. Most of this problem arose when the manufacturers finally came up with a golf ball that just about everyone theretofore thought to be impossible---eg a golf ball that had a low spin rate and felt soft enough for good players to use around the greens.

Obviously some on here who are not old enough to remember that don't understand it very well and what it means in the evolution of this entire distance problem as it relates to the golf ball. The entire world of golf basically always felt there only would be two types of golf balls--eg low spinning hard balls and high spinning softer balls. Everyone always thought their different characteristics never could be combined. For decades the manufacturers thought the same thing.

For God Sakes I remember the shock in golf when the manufacturers came up with the two piece hard ball. That was thought to be totally revolutionary back then because for the first time in golf's history one bad shot would no longer ruin a golf ball.

Most on this board just have no appreciation of those evolutions and so the don't understand the importance of them and how they effected the way things have evolved in I&B and more importantly its rules and regulations.

 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2006, 08:06:19 AM by TEPaul »

John Keenan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2006, 08:52:18 AM »
Pat

When Shivas used the term prototype I think he actually meant pre commercial release. This would be a ball that is not available to the public BUT has been through h USGA testing.

On the GC I heard Taylor Made talk about a new ball they were letting Sergio use prior to commercial release.
The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2006, 12:21:57 PM »
The numbers that David posted can easliy be explained as better conditioning and strength, and fine tuning of ball/club with swing...

Those are facts David...unless of course you do not think hitting the gym 4 days a week and having your ball and club fitted to your swing is worth 15 additional yards...
We are no longer a country of laws.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2006, 12:59:16 PM »
The numbers that David posted can easliy be explained as better conditioning and strength, and fine tuning of ball/club with swing...

Those are facts David...unless of course you do not think hitting the gym 4 days a week and having your ball and club fitted to your swing is worth 15 additional yards...

This of course presumes that all the players decided to go to the gym to start working out and went through club fitting at the same time.

It also presume that Chad Campbell has been secretly working out and telling the media that he is not interested in doing so. :)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2006, 01:00:06 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2006, 02:22:46 PM »
Craig,
I think your being ignorant. But that's my opinion. Doesn't mean I'm making it personal, I'm not. But I do think your being totally ignorant. All of those numbers you posted, well who and how is that research coming to light?

It reminds me of the plight of the Avro Arrow which for the more part was the most technical, most well-designed fighter/bomber/interceptor aircraft built for it's time.

In test flights, The Arrow broke the world speed record using English-built Pratt & Whitney engines. Fearing that this would affect the funding and production of the very powerful Avro Iroquois jet engine which was designed and destined for the Arrow, that record was stiffled and the numbers altered by the CEO of Avro Canada with intent to make the plane more invincible only with their own engine. With a change in politcal power, the fastest if not most technical aircraft of it's time ended-up being cut up for scrap. What was left of Avro Canada was bought-up by Hawker-Siddely, and chopped into little pieces. Just like what is going to eventually happen to Golf if the USGA isn't careful.

So, I guess what I'm trying to imply that whenever you see these distances, know there always exists the possibility that they have been altered to benefit those who need them altered. Especially if it's that particular party that is doing the altering. Simply put, I think those facts and figures, as well as the ridiculous statements the USGA/Rugge put out there regarding the sky not falling, are as prepostorous as their thinking that they are a prime governing body of all of golf.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2006, 02:25:16 PM by Tommy Naccarato »

DMoriarty

Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2006, 06:53:02 PM »
Craig, you and I have a very different understand of just what constitutes a fact . . .

You say . . .
The numbers that David posted can easliy be explained as better conditioning and strength, and fine tuning of ball/club with swing...

Those are facts David...unless of course you do not think hitting the gym 4 days a week and having your ball and club fitted to your swing is worth 15 additional yards...

Those are the facts?  What facts?  Your statement is fact free.   In fact, you again simply resort to the exact type of unsupported anecdote, conjecture, and assumption that you vehemently criticize above.  

Do you have any actual facts to support your bald assertion that these huge jumps in yardage can be completely explained by conditioning and fine tuning?   Are you holding back information about a controlled study conducted on the subject?  

While you are gathering your facts, how about addressing these fact-based questions?

-- How does your 'conditioning and tuning assertion' explain the fact that there is a very strong correlation between between ball type and distance gain?  Particularly, why did so many of the players who switched to the ProV1x generally gain so much more distance than the rest of the field?    Was there an exercise book which came free with every box of ProV1x's.

-- How does your 'conditioning and tuning assertion' explain the fact that these tremendous jumps occurred at exactly the moment these players switched to the ProV1x?
Yardages exploded in the Mercedes Championship in mid-January 2003 and stayed up throughout the year.  What kind of an exercise and tuning program kicks in so suddenly and to so many players?  

Really Craig, I am starting to wonder if you arent growing some sort of Carl Spackler hybrid up there . . .

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2006, 07:13:59 PM »

The numbers that David posted can easliy be explained as better conditioning and strength, and fine tuning of ball/club with swing...

That's absurd.

You can't offer one shred of evidence to support the better conditioning and strength argument you constantly preach as the explanation for increased distance.

Noone currently on tour is in better condition than Gary Player, Frank Stranahan or Hale Irwin were.  Hale Irwin was an all conference defensive back at Colorado.  Who on tour could fill that position today ?  

Watching the final round of the U.S. Open I couldn't help but think how much better my golf game would be, if only I was in the same shape as Phil Mickelson and Colin Montgomerie.


Those are facts David...unless of course you do not think hitting the gym 4 days a week

Those aren't facts.

And, you have NO PROOF that anyone on tour spends 4 days a week in the gym.  They're sure not there on Wednesday,
Thursay, Friday, Saturday and Sunday.  And since they're traveling or playing in corporate outings on Monday, that leaves them with Tuesday.  
They must really work out hard on Tuesday.



and having your ball and club fitted to your swing is worth 15 additional yards...

How do you know that they didn't already have the right mix ?

You offer NO concrete evidence, just unfounded general statements.


Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2006, 08:50:59 PM »
Pat, you David are correct...todays tour golfer is a cig smoking, over weight pile of goo....I don't know what I was thinking. Those workout centers that follow the tour are never used and if you ever catch a tour pro on a swing monitor it must be just for show.

Please accept my appology for even suggesting that todays tour players are more fit and have equipment tuned for their swings.

But...I bet if they did hit the gym and if they did eat right, and have equipment custom fitted for their swings, they would knock the ball agood 15-20 yards farther than those old timer pro's Mucci mentioned.
We are no longer a country of laws.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2006, 08:57:03 PM »
Mucci...did Hale Irwin or Gary Player have this available to them 30 years ago?

http://www.pgatour.com/story/9456763
We are no longer a country of laws.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #45 on: September 10, 2006, 09:04:34 PM »

Pat, you David are correct...todays tour golfer is a cig smoking, over weight pile of goo....

Going from one extreme to the other doesn't support your unfounded position.


I don't know what I was thinking.

That's obvious


Those workout centers that follow the tour are never used,

Do you know for certain, who uses them, the time they spend in them and what they work on ?

You don't, so don't posture that you do and that every golfer is working out 4 hours a day, four days a week.

One of the best golf exercises is the simple task of hitting lots of golf balls.


and if you ever catch a tour pro on a swing monitor it must be just for show.

PGA Tour Pros have known how to hit the ball high or low for years.  Launch monitors don't alter swings, they just influence the equipment the player is using.  Tour Pros worked on maximizing distance for decades, it just wasn't as high tech and took more time.


Please accept my appology for even suggesting that todays tour players are more fit and have equipment tuned for their swings.

You haven't produced a shred of evidence to support your theory that today's players are more fit.

When I pointed to two of the best, Phil Mickelson and Colin Montgomerie, you were suddenly at a loss for words to explain how they can be so long when they're so out of shape.


But...I bet if they did hit the gym and if they did eat right, and have equipment custom fitted for their swings, they would knock the ball agood 15-20 yards farther than those old timer pro's Mucci mentioned.

If, If, If.

The fact is you haven't offered one iota of evidence to support your claim, and noone ate healthier, worked out more and was more fit than Gary Player.  Frank Stranahan was also in superb shape, being light years ahead of his time, and, Hale Irwin was a well conditioned athlete, having been an all conference defensive back at Colorado.

Which one of your diet concious, workout workaholics could be an all conference defensive back at Colorado today ?

Answer none.

You and your theory are all hot air, absent facts to support your claims.


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2006, 09:11:27 PM »
Mucci...did Hale Irwin or Gary Player have this available to them 30 years ago?

http://www.pgatour.com/story/9456763


They didn't need this.

Irwin and Player were in such good shape that they didn't have bad shoulders and other ailments associated with out of shape golfers.

Why didn't you read more of the article.
It mentions that Player was a fitness buff.
He was the prototype and poster boy for physical fitness.

As to Hale Irwin, do you have any idea of how athletic and fit you have to be to play defensive back at Colorado, let alone be named an all-conference defensive back ?

Once again, your head remains firmly imbeded in the sand on yet another issue.

DMoriarty

Re:Walter Driver/USGA comments
« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2006, 11:41:46 PM »
Pat, you David are correct...todays tour golfer is a cig smoking, over weight pile of goo....I don't know what I was thinking. Those workout centers that follow the tour are never used and if you ever catch a tour pro on a swing monitor it must be just for show.

Please accept my appology for even suggesting that todays tour players are more fit and have equipment tuned for their swings.

But...I bet if they did hit the gym and if they did eat right, and have equipment custom fitted for their swings, they would knock the ball agood 15-20 yards farther than those old timer pro's Mucci mentioned.

Craig, I guess we will add sarcasm to the conjecture, unsupported anecdote, assumption, and storytelling which you have offered to support your 'exercise and fine tuning' assertion.  

Let me be clear.  I am neither disputing nor even discussing what impact (if any) fitness and fine tuning have had on Pro Golf.  Rather, my present inquiry is much more specific.  How does your theory explain the explosive gains in yardage among so many players in the brief time between the end of the 2002 season and the beginning of the 2003 season.  

Given your insistence that our positions be supported facts, it is only fair that you offer us the facts that explain this huge jump in distance by these players.  

Honestly Craig, this discussion is quickly eroding any credibility you had on this issue, especially given your impassioned plea for facts, above.  

Before your credibility is completely gone you might as well accept that these facts cut directly against that your 'exercise and tuning assumption,' which does not even begin to explain this one particular jump in distance.  

Or you could come up with some actual "facts" which support your position, but then we know that at least in this instance none exist.
______________________________


John Keenan,  I agree with you that Shivas meant pre-commercial release.  But he is wrong about when this happened though.  The pros got their ProV1x's at the beginning 0f 2003 and we didnt get them until months later.