Is this an automatic architectural write-off

[Bryan Izatt]

Because it has a waterfall?  The hole has some interesting architectural features - a split fairway; stategic options off the tee; natural waste areas; a beach bunker; and an interestingly sloped green complex.  But are all these trumped by the waterfall.

From the aerial you can see that the waterfall and rushing stream connect two ponds - one about 20 feet higher than the other.



The tee shot presents an intimidating choice of a shorter carry over the pond to the left fairway, where you you can bite off as much as you want, or the right fairway that requires a 250 yard carry, but opens up the green and allows for a ground game second if desired.



The left fairway presents an angled shot to the green, across the pool at the base of the waterfalls.



Thw waterfall and bubbling brook are aesthetically pleasing and naturalistic.



The right fairway provides a straightforward pitch to the green and nice views of the waterfall.

[Ally Mcintosh]

the question of the split fairway - do you need a ground game second?... if not, why go right (unless you can 3-wood the green) - it looks very tight...

mind you, seems similar in angle and yardage to the 14th at loch lomond and the pros consistently go for the putting surface there...

[Phil_the_Author]

Bryan,

How long a hole is it? How much does the ground rise from tee-to-green? Is it drivable and by what skill level? (only pro or scratch or 18 h'cap who can catch the occasional drive, etc...)

[John Foley]

Bryan,

No the waterfall does not make it a write off. Given the pics, it's not horrible. I don't know if it's needed. A waste area may have been sufficent.

It reminds me of Fazio's #15 at WW-Pine Barrens.

What is the cary to the right fw?

Where & what is the course?

[cary lichtenstein]

I have more of a problem with the trees, they all look like they have been planted...are they really necessary on this site at all?

Somehow I think I have played this hole, but I can't place it.

[Lou_Duran]

I like water features, specially when natural or made to look that way.

At Boot Ranch near Fredericksburg, TX, Hal Sutton enhanced an existing natural waterfall and incorporated it into a very interesting down hill, L to R short par 4.  Reportedly, he contracted out the work on the waterfall to Disney, which apparently has considerable expertise in this area.  No, neither the hole nor the course has any Mickey Mouse stuff going on.  

[Tim Taylor]

I don't think so. I will say, though, that the hole looks more appealing from your photos than it does from the aerial.

Like someone else said, I'd really need to know the distances involved to see if the options make any sense.

Tim

[Ally Mcintosh]

did bryan not say it was a 250 carry?... so looking at the aerial view, must be 320, 330 to the green going the direct route... it doesn't look like a particularly difficult approach from the safe route... so my limited knowledge of the hole says 'not sure if the reward outweighs the risk'...

anyway, that's nothing to do with the waterfall...

...not quite sure what you meant when you said 'architectural write-off'?

[Bryan Izatt]

The hole is listed at 348 from the tips, which are the right hand tee blocks in the aerial.  The carry from the tips to the right fairway is around 250 yards.  Going that direction the green is about 310 or 320 yards, so would certainly be driveable by some.  The right hand fairway, perversely becomes less attractive as you move up to the more forward tee blocks as the carry is about the same, and the angle is worse.  

The green is maybe 20 feet above the tees, so it plays slightly uphill.

The waterfall is very natural looking.  I think it adds to the ambiance more than yet another waste area would.

The trees were all planted when the course was done three years ago.  They are natural to the area, but groves of them are planted throughout the course and give it a distinctive look.  None of them on any hole are really in the field of play.  The fairways are 50 to 70 yards wide on many holes, and the holes reward shots hit to the proper part of the fairway to attack the greens.  It won't be an invasion of trees a la PV in 30 years.

The course is Osprey Valley - Hoot, about an hour's drive north of Toronto.  The Hoot is one of three good courses on the property.

[John Foley]

Bryan,

I actually played this hole?? I was at the Hoot a few years ago and don't remeber it. I do remeber a few others, but this one escapes me.

[Garland Bayley]

Lest we all forget, I would remind everyone that golf is a game played on land, not on water. What purpose do the ponds serve other than to add more penalty strokes to ones score or to assure loosing the hole in match play. What would be wrong with simply having the stream run through the same land with the rest of the nonfairway area being rough? It is a lot easier to play a recovery shot from rough than it is from water.

The waterfalls look to be fine. As far as I can tell they look natural and it is certainly possible that a stream on land with such an elevation change might have some rapids or small waterfalls.

The ponds make it an automatic architectural write-off, not the stream and waterfalls/rapids.

Edit: How many ponds are there on TOC? Sand Hills? Pacific Dunes? placed by Mackenzie at Augusta? I think you get my point.

[RJ_Daley]

I think the hole looks like one of the prize winners of the armchair architect contests.  I'm not disliking it as an armchair concept.  But, it has so much going on, that it seems contrived in the pipe dreamers sort of mindset rather than found or designed upon real land.  It is almost like it was a one hole enterprize.  

Now, that is all said without seeing the rest of the course or obviously playing it.  And, I'm sure I'd enjoy playing this hole for the same obvious reasons of choices off the tee.  iron-fw metal, or driver off tee...  Although, a 250 carry is pretty much out of my league from the tips, perhaps a middle tee and a good following wind on a day I'm hitting it good, might get me crazy to go for it.

[Bryan Izatt]

RJ,

The course was designed by Carrick designs, one of Canada's preeminent design firms - hopefully they're past the armchair architect contest phase.  The course would certainly not qualify as a minimalist course, but it is architecturally and visually consistent.  And, is in the top 100 Canadian courses.  Perhaps on the ground the hole does not play as busy as it may look from these pictures.

We all get those crazy moments when we go for it, against all reasonable thought processes

Garland,

Ponds serve to provide irrigation water for the course.  Some of the ponds on the property are naturally occuring.  In your universe, I guess they should have been filled in.

These days, on most US courses, the game is played in the air.  Whether it is rough or water or fairway under the shot is almost immaterial.  And, I'm guessing (unscientifically) that most everyone who plays the game has fun (sometimes) trying to carry water hazards.  Would you want to fill in the Pacific on the 16th at CPC so you won't take a penalty shot in the water hazard?

How many ponds are there on Kiawah - Ocean Course, TPC Sawgrass, or the much maligned Medinah.  I guess the whole state of Florida is a write-off for you.

John,

How many years ago did you play it?  It's only been open three years.  There are three courses there - you might have played its more famous sibling - Heathlands.

[Tom_Doak]

It looks very much like the 18th hole at Shadow Creek, in 3/4 scale.

[John Foley]

Bryan,

Was it open for a preview the fall before it's opening?

I used to get up to the Toronto area to visit RIM (makers of the world famous Blackberry!) quite often. It was on one of those trips that I was there.  I did play the Heathlands on a previous trip and remeber seeing the construction going on and thinking I needed to get back to see the new courses. Have not seen the Toot.  

[Garland Bayley]

Bryan,

I have no problem with natural ponds. I don't think they should be used to dominate the architecture of a hole though.

I have never quite understood irrigation ponds. I assume they pump the water from wells into the pond and then pump from the pond to the sprinklers. Seems if they went directly to the sprinklers there wouldn't be a need for the pond. I have to assume the purpose of the pond is to make a large supply available for quick use over a short time. And then we complain about overwatering. Seems like needless waste to me.

The game may be played in the air, but failing to carry a pond costs more than failing to carry rough. Actually, the hole in question is quite boring off the tee. It says if you can't carry 250 yds 95% of the time, then you are required to play the most difficult route. It is much more interesting if the choice is no matter what your carry, you can choose to attempt to play from the rough with a good angle, or you can play from the fairway with a bad angle. Besides, attempting to carry the creek on our approach is about as much excitement as some of us old fogeys care to take on.

As Patrick would say, you're not really serious about comparing CPC #16 to this hole are you?

There are so many golf courses in the world to experience, that I don't feel any need to play the ones you mention. By similar reasoning, I guess a pond lover such as yourself probably could care less about coming to Oregon to experience Bandon.

[Bryan Izatt]

Tom,

Haven't been to Shadow Creek, but from the aerial, the location of the stream looks somewhat similar.  The tee shots look different.

Don't all architects travel to see courses to get ideas to incorporate into their own courses.

John,

Yes, there was limited play the fall before it opened.  If you get back, the Toot is worth seeing too.  A big course like the Hoot, but with big maintained bunkers.  

The original concept was to name them the heathland course, the wasteland course, and the parkland course, to describe their style, but then the owner got other ideas.  When you were there they were probably referred to as Royal Hoot and Royal Toot.  Somewhere along the way, thankfully, the Royal got lost, although I'm still not sure of the Hoot and Toot meaning?

Anyway, one of the better, and best value, 3 course complexes anywhere.

Shivas,

I guess the Reverse Jans is more a lay of the land design then.  Although I wouldn't be surprised if Garland would want to grass over the El.  Too penal as is.

[Garland Bayley]

...Although I wouldn't be surprised if Garland would want to grass over the El.  Too penal as is.

I'm not a rules expert, but I believe hitting the el would mean I retee, no penalty.

[Garland Bayley]

In that case, since these are hard object which the ball will probably rebound off of, there is only a small probability of having to take an unplayable lie and assess a penalty stroke. Let's play!

[Bryan Izatt]

If the El is electrified, I'm taking the unplayable lie or lost ball approach.  

[Garland Bayley]

An electrified el is a dangerous situation. Such a dangerous situation would allow a free drop (isn't it interesting that MW knew that rule, but didn't know the grounding club in hazard rule). I don't care what the honorable committee says, they can't change the possibility of free relief there.