[David Sneddon]

Congratualtions JES11 - an outstanding performance.

[wsmorrison]

I went out with Jim for a few holes yesterday, he was relaxed and jovial as always...even during such an important event.  Nice to see he can compete and still interact with the gallery  

A little something to add to the ever-growing Sullivan reputation.  The man hardly plays golf at all!  Jim told me that August was his most active month of golf in a long time--I think he said he played 5 times!  With a real job and a family (4th child on the way, I think), Jim is truly a gifted amateur and a gentleman as well.  Gosh, if he was good looking, he'd have it all  

[BCrosby]

Congrats Jim. Well done.   Bob

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim,

Congratulations on an awesome victory.  I'm really happy for you and it sounds to have been a great matchup and exciting day all around.  

Mike

[Doug Wright]

Congratulations JESII! Well done.

[TEPaul]

Of course, after all the kudos and huzzahs have been offered we will pretty much need JESII to explain to us how his interest and knowledge of golf course architecture may've influenced and affected his performance in this event.

The architecture of Applebrook is most certanly different enough from architecture over here generally to be worthy of this kind of discussion.

I'd say there are aspects of that course that are massively penal but the interesting thing is the margins for error are also remarkably wide---eg it would not surprise me if the total fairway area on that course is less than app 45 acres plus. But the greens are pretty strategic---eg you definitely needed to get the ball in the right places on them or at least not in the wrong places which is sometimes not all that obvious. Or maybe it is---but let's see what Jim Sullivan Jr says about that. I think there's not much question after his performance he should know better than any of us.  

By the way, Sullivan, although I'm delighted you won that tournament, I'm more than a little pissed about it because, you see, I bet about half my miniscule fortune before the tournament began that Schlachter would win that thing.  

Not just that but I also told you about one hour before the final round that if I were you I definitely would not be expecting him to blow-up at any point in that last round which is precisely what he did do. Had he not done so or to that extent it would've been interesting to see you two tee off on the last hole tied.

But I gotta congratulate you because even if he had not done that you and your birdie production sure did put you in a position to stare him down at the very end. I just wasn't expecting you to stare him down like that around about the 13th or 14th hole (and 15th and 16th and 17th).  

[mike_malone]

 Jim,

  Congratulations! That probably ranks up there with that dinner with Tom Paul and James Bennett.

[TEPaul]

"That probably ranks up there with that dinner with Tom Paul and James Bennett."

Was that the night he fell asleep at the table and spilt his beer all over himself?

[mike_malone]

 That may have happened after that epic agronomic discussion between you and James.

[JESII]

Very kind of all of you, and Tommy, thanks very much for helping make the Pennsylvania Golf Association one of the very best regional associations I've had the opportunity to compete within.

p.s. I would never waste a beer in that manner.



Sweeney,

Don't give me that crap, we'll get a game as soon as possible. Whether it be the Irish Open or somewhere else, I'm looking forward to it.



By the way, actually having the opportunity to meet TEPaul in person and become absorbed in his aura is something to behold. I think there is another thread going on right now about places to play between D.C. and NYC. Let me tell you what, it should be like a pilgrimmage to Mecca. Drive that car or wagon right out to the western woods of Philadelphia and look for Happydale Farms and get ready to believe....just make sure to bring a couple bottles of red.

Seriously though, thanks very much for the kind words. It certainly is fun playing a good golf course in competition.

[Jeff Fortson]

This picture almost ranks up there with the Fortson Kings Putter picture:



Congratulations!

This is WAAAY bigger than me and the King's Putter.  Congrats to Jim.  That is a very impressive win.


Jeff F.

[Mike Hendren]

Congratulations, Jim.  Quite a feat in such a golf rich state!

I am floored by the photo of Tom Paul.  After suffering/wading/snoring/stumbling/speed-reading through his posts over the past several years,  I never imagined he would be such a distinguished looking gentleman.

Mike

[Jason Topp]

This picture almost ranks up there with the Fortson Kings Putter picture:



Congratulations!

This is WAAAY bigger than me and the King's Putter.  Congrats to Jim.  That is a very impressive win.


Jeff F.

While this is a big accomplishment, I would hate to in any way to denigrate the Kings Putter.  

[Dan Herrmann]

Jim,
Congratulations!  It was great to finally meet you this summer!

Could you tell us how you played #2 in the final match?

Isn't Applebrook a great place?  Laura and I played there last year and they treated us like royalty.  

[JESII]

Really interesting hole, #2, isn't it Dan.

I'll try to describe the hole, then what I thought going into playing it, and now afterwards. Feel free to correct anything I may miss.

From the tees we played I believe the hole measures 365 and is a strong dogleg right with a 20 foot deep bunker guarding the corner. As a ball park I would say it's about 250 to carry the corner of the bunker and getting a slight bit longer as you go further right.

From the tee the fairway rises gently to that area even with the end of the bunker before rolling down to a low area of fairway as it turns around it. At 240 yards from the tee, the fairway is about 25 or 30 yards wide with a full shot penalty for missing to the right and a very difficult approach if missing to the left due to the size and makeup of the green complex. At 275 the fairway is about 70 yards wide so long as you can carry the bunker. I chose this option because the penalty for missing in that bunker is so severe, and playing out well left of it would seemingly leave such a long shot (150 or so) to such a small target. I hit my drive very well, as did one of my playing partners (but his length only allowed him to take the route just left of the bunker). Now I am down in this low area of fairway with a 70 yard shot to a green perched up a bit above eye level and a pin right on the front edge on top of about a 10 foot front cut as fairway that will bring the ball 10 - 15 yards off the green. The other guy is back up on the top of the hill looking slightly down on the green with a fuller much more comfortable shot into the pin. Standing down there I really wished I had thought it through a bit better because my shot was just not a comfortable one. I thought that hole was a great examply of what Gil did at Applebrook because he gives you plenty of room to blast away, and he gives you plenty of decisions about whether or not it makes sense to. Fact of the matter is, I was a little nervous and would not have been confident in hitting my 3 wood up onto the perch that is rewarded with a great look at the hole and I was penalized with an awkward little wedge shot into a tough green.

I have yet to play the course in its desired firm conditions, but can imagine those type of decisions I faced on #2 are rampant out there because it really is a course of angles, for playability and visibility.



For those that have played it, how about #16?

Anyone care to go into describing the hole?

[TEPaul]

Sully:

I'm glad to see this thread evolve into your impressions of the strategic playability of Applebrook and its architecture. That's a very fine and informative description of #2. Seems like the options are basically balanced with a lot of nuances on the risk/reward equations of the various tee shot choices.

"For those that have played it, how about #16?"

#16 is a pretty interesting hole. It's both admired and criticized for a whole variety of reasons, and apparently has been since its creation. Some think the creek crossing the fairway is a bit ill placed for the long hitting contingent off the tee as getting over it is too much of a stretch to be a tempting option and obviously that shuts down any possiblity of a heroic second shot at that green (one golfer, as far as I know, on the first day of the PA Mid-Am did bomb his drive over the creek (I think McDermott who as you know is very long bombed it right into the creek on the second day while sit being remotely in contention)).

So most everyone lays up on their tee shots with less than driver.

From there that mid fairway bunker on the second half is one of the best examples of a "line of charm" hazard feature you can find on a modern course. The fairway space over that bunker which is probably 50 yards or more as you know looks like almost nothing from the second shot, so that alone is wonderful visual deception on that architecture.

I probably spent about three hours on that hole and it fascinated me how many golfers attempted to bomb their second shots directly over the top of that bunker instead of going right of it (or left of it which isn't particularly useful as the hole goes dead right from there). In my opinion, that's what the "line of instinct", the first order of business of all really good "line of charm" hazard features, is all about if they are going to be as tempting as they should be.

The only thing I would do on that hole is remove a good deal of that massive "rough ring" around that center bunker and put it into fairway area.
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

JES II,

Competing is fun, winning a major amateur tournament is more than thrilling.  It's spectacular, for you, your family, friends, and disfunctional GCA.com'ers.

From today forth, your name will be memorialized as The 2006 Pennsylvania State Mid-Amateur Champion.

Years from now you can show your kids the trophy or let them read about it in the annual publications.

It's a wonderful fete.

Something everyone should be proud of.

Garland Bayley,

I'm a lot younger looking than TEPaul despite being many years his senior.

[JSlonis]

Way to go Sully!

That's great playing.

[TEPaul]

Sully:

Perhaps they told you this but perhaps they didn't. Your last round score is Appelebrook's new competitive record.

[Jim Nugent]

Congratulations on a very special achievement.

You realize that from this moment forward, your posts will be read with greater attention, and your opinions given more weight than ever before.  

[George Pazin]

Nice job, congrats. It's always nice to see a poster win something, but especially so when it's someone whose opinions and thoughts I always enjoy reading.

Pa Mid Am, US Mid Am, Masters... it's okay to dream big!

 

P.S. I've always thought Applebrook deserved more recognition and more discussion on here.

[Dan Herrmann]

Masters?   Hmmm..

Need a caddy?

[ed_getka]

Any 20 handicappers out there that have played Applebrook? We could pick a hole and test Jason B.'s theory. Jim vs. the 20-handicap.

Jim,
   Congratulations on the win. Regarding #2, what is going on with the green such that you don't want to come in from the left side of the fairway?
    I don't play much golf either, but I am a 12, what am I doing wrong?

[JESII]

Thanks again to everyone, very nice words. What a great feeling.

Ed,

My position on the 20 versus scratch vision is that it really matters very little so long as the individual has a keen eye for detail, a broad imagination and strong observatory skills. When I play a course (whether for the first time or the 100th) I am generally trying to shoot the best score I can, so I am bound to miss countless details along the way. These are the details that make a great golf course. Each hole presents its obstacles but I doubt my playing ability would help me create, or find, a great golf hole in the middle of a forest or field. I did say one thing that may not have been worded well on that thread so I'll try again. I think the characteristics that go into making a good player are instrumental to making a good architect so in a sense they are interrelated. In other words, frequently if a person is passionate about golf and pays attention to how it is played by others they have a good opportunity to become a very good player (so long as the other 100 or so variables fall into place). These same qualities seem mandatory to become a good GCA.


About #2 at Applebrook.

The left side of the fairway was no good because the pin (while set in the front-middle of the green) was slightly blocked by the front-left bunker. I also had the ball slightly below my feet which makes that little 70 yard shot a bit awkward. I hit a good shot to about 15 feet straight behind the pin, but if I were dialing up the best way to play the hole it would have been the way my fellow competitor did. About a 250 shot just left of the corner bunker to the plateau so he had a full sand wedge to the pin with a much better visual.

As I feel most holes would, when the course is firm this hole would take on an entirely different feel. All of the sudden the play I made off the tee would bounce up into the rough so I have an exponentially more difficult approach shot. This would dictate my taking on more of the corner off the tee but leaving myself with a more awkward 40 or 50 yard shot to a green 8 or 10 feet above me (assuming I hit it well, if I don't I'm back in the fescue praying for life). This also enhances the difficulty of the shot I was uncomfortable with in soft conditions. Due to the contourse of the fairway, it would take real ball control to get the tee shot into position up on the plateau.

[ed_getka]

Jim,
  Thanks for the feedback.

   Out of curiosity do you play casual rounds the same way as competitive rounds? In the sense of what you notice architecturally.

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