[Ryan Farrow]

I am now in my 3rd year of the landscape architecture program at Arizona State. Every day I begin to question the merits of the program and its usefulness as a pathway to becoming a Golf Course Architect. Sure not all of it is a complete waste. I am finally taking drainage and grading class which will probably be my most useful class at ASU. The design studios seem to help a lot and gave me a good understand of how the design process works. Translating sketches and ideas to site plans and models, formal presentations, and learning how to graphically represent your ideas is very important. Now it is becoming very repetitive and I am loosing interest in this 5 credit hour class that meets for 10 hours a week.

I have yet to learn AutoCAD and likely won't until I sit down and teach myself. My LANDSCAPE ARHCITECTURE studio is the same as the architecture students, again. I will be spend the majority of my time working on floor plans, choosing building materials, and o yea, design buildings. I have the most useless landscape history class (pre 1900's) that is in essence a theology class.

Turf classes are at a branch school 30 minutes away and conflict with other mandatory classes so I doubt I will be able to take any of those.



I am seriously contemplating dropping out of the landscape program and taking classes that will be of actual importance, but who would hire me with a general studies degree?

I know many of the architects on GCA went through some of the same classes and curriculum I did. How frustrating was it for you? How can I get the most out of my education? I am thinking that $60,000 on tuition could have been better spent. Possible across the Atlantic.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ryan,

You are where you need to be, but I am surprised that in your third year you still do building architecture.  I say stay put. As you say, grading and drainage are the most important.  Maybe a good business pro practice class next, but these are usually poor classes.

Take those turf classes if you have to ride a pig to the other campus, either this year or next, when schedule permits, or at least talk to them about auditing the class or getting the basic handouts since you can't be there.  Lobby for either some diverse projects in the normal design studios or an independent study project in golf.  If no professor thinks they can evaluate that kind of project, contact a gca to do it outside.

You might also look in other departments for classes in aerial photograpy interpretation, basic surveying or engineering skills, construction management, writing for business, public speaking, any computer skills (CAD, Photoshop, Excel, whatever) and natural systems and ecology.

Be proactive to get the most out of your college days, just as RTJ, Doak, and others did.  While you will hit many roadblocks in your quest to be a gca, don't let yourself be the thing that stops you!

[Bruce Katona]

When I was at Rutgers, we had very little building design....one class a year maybe....we spent most of our time on grading, drainage, and construction detailing in addition to the basic design studios  and plant materials.

 It really isn't that different grading and designing a grass courtyard in front of a structure than a golf corridor...you still need to move the participant thru the space from point A to point B while guiding the user to where he/she needs to go.  Optical illusions and false perspectives to confuse the user a fun and useful, but the space needs to be modulated ( ie the experience from a parking lot to the front of the building  or from the tee to the fairway to the green...the thought process is similar.

Learing to see and think in 3 dimensions is a wonderful tool to learn and use.

[Ryan Farrow]

Jeff and Bruce thanks for your responses. I tried very hard this semester to get some useful classes on my schedule. Once you get into 300 and 400 level classes it’s almost impossible to fit electives into the LA curriculum. For example they only had one 3 credit AutoCAD class and it met during my studio. They had two 1 credit classes just for the college of architecture and design and they were both filled with only 18 students in each class, no overrides and this is the largest university in the country?

For some reason they had a mandatory 3-D modeling class sophomore year and I have since mastered the software so the jump down to 2-D should be a breeze. But who is going to hire an intern with no AutoCAD experience? What I don’t understand is only 17 students were accepted into upper division this summer and they still have us mixed in with 50+ architecture students and continue to blend us in with as many others as possible. I think my history of LA class has about 50+ students. We have been given no extra attention since we started the program and had to abide by their strict set of classes up to graduation.


I did however pick up an environmental planning class that seems very promising. Is there any interaction between environmental planners and golf course architects?

[Scott Witter]

Ryan:

Sure much of your time can be frustrating, but then again much of my time now can be the same as well, depends on what I am doing, plans, drainage, construction, or going to meetings for permitting, now that can be frustrating!.  I think Jeff is right and you need to stick it out since you have come this far.

I too am surprised at the amount of Architecture you are doing.  At my college we took all the usual classes, but we also had professional practice where we worked on real construction plans, a natural processes class where we studied erosion and landscape changes through the natural process  pretty cool stuff actually!, we also had a full course just on drainage and grading, there was surveying, but I had already had two years of that prior.  I graduated in 1986 so Auto CADD was still out there in the future a bit, but we had lots of design studio, model making to build our ideas, sketch classes..sorry if I am making you jealous, but I have gathered that you are fairly young and young enough to still go overseas and study around a while...not a bad idea, or go into golf construction after college, that has worked very well for many successful and talented golf architects.

Keep your chin up and as Tiger says "keep grinding and making putts"

[Tom_Doak]

Ryan:

Knowing how to use AutoCAD has nothing to do with our internship selections.

But, you're in school and you should stick it out.  When I finished working for Mr. Dye the summer of my junior year, I wondered if there was any point in going back to get my degree -- I knew I would learn more from another year in the field than from another year in school.  But, sticking to your program and having a degree is worth something in the long run, even if it's not necessarily the quickest way to learn the most about golf architecture.

[TEPaul]

Ryan:

In my opinion, this thread and your sort of plaintive questions about this (route) is incredbibly meaningful.

Essentially, I think you're asking if landscape architecture or the entire discipline or the art form of landscape architecture, landscape design, landscape gardening or whatever else one might want to call it is really necessary to a true understanding of golf course architecture or even necessary to golf architecture at all. Or, even if, perhaps landscape architecture is counterproductive to golf course architecture.

I believe I'm beginning to think like you apparently are, but I may have gone way beyond you. I've been wondering for some time now if landscape architecture just might be, and at best, golf course architecture's evil step-sister or even adopted evil sister who has nothing to do with the true bloodlines of the family. Think about it!

The problem may be that landscape architecture has been artificially attached to golf course architecture for so long now that most everyone thinks it's a necessary part of the family.

What has landscape architecture really done for golf architecture other than to act the part of aesthetic enhancement only?

Does golf course architecture really need that at all?

What do you think?

[Ryan Farrow]

Tom, when I thought about starting the thread that was the main issue on my mind. I kind of got off topic a bit complaining more about the school than Landscape Architecture in general. I don’t think I am the right person to say that it’s not the best way because I have not tried other schools who might have a more specialized curriculum. I’m sure the top programs across the country do a better job educating students on an individual basis according to their future career paths. In my case ASU gives me a list of classes I need to take and if I don’t then, no LA degree.

I think a mix between turf science and landscape architecture would be most beneficial for someone in my situation.

Tom Doak, you bring up something very interesting and it is probably the reason I have gotten so upset with the program. I want to learn as much as I can in school but it’s just not happening and probably won’t. The only way I can learn golf course architecture is by going out to see some good courses (which I did once since school started) and by reading books on the subject.

[Ian Andrew]

Ryan,

I went to Ryerson first before going to Guelph (I graduated from both programs in LA). The reason I attended a second school was I felt that I had all the technical skill that I wanted from Ryerson, but I felt I was sadly lacking on the design end of things. Between schools I spent a summer in Europe sketching and visiting some of the greatest historical gardens and squares which really got me excited about going back to school. I ended up going to Guelph and got what I felt I needed to be a good solid designer. One important note for you was while I was at Ryerson I took a series of civil engineering courses as electives to make me a better LA, when I went to Guelph I took a lot of general electives that made me a more rounded person. Don’t waste that opportunity while your there.

You can't get everything you want from any program and occasionally courses seem worthless at the time. The Landscape Architecture program is a sum of many parts with each "theoretically" giving you the ability to see the full picture.

I don’t know your age but I’m going to guess you’re in your 20’s. Stick it out, because graduating at least shows that you’re capable of seeing something through from the start to the finish. That matters in life and I doubt you would regret graduating after the fact – there is a chance you will deeply regret quitting. If you think your school really truly sucks, transfer to another school and continue on. You really should be enjoying the program by now.

When you’re done, go find an internship like Tom’s that will really teach you what you want to learn.

A note about Autocadd and imagery: It’s the easiest way into the profession and an easy way to find yourself in a position where you don’t design.

Call me any evening if you want to talk about this

[Ryan Farrow]

Scott, do you think you education was more hands on due to the, for lack of a better word, time period you were at school?

It seems there has been more of a push to relate the field of architecture and landscape architecture even if they are polar opposites. Our school seems to think so and I wonder if this is more universal concept or a way for ASU to save some money.


Ian, I would like to talk sometime, you do a good job keeping most of us informed on what you are doing and what you’re thinking. I really enjoy your blog and encourage you to keep it up when you have the time.

Unless I got some once in a lifetime job opportunity I don't think I would ever quit school completely, my current issues are with the direction I am heading with the LA Program. I would love to create my own schedule and get my own degree so to speak. I have already invested two years of my life and tuition expenses to give up on it. I could never do that to my parents.

Ian, in two years we have another presidential election, If some changes don't take place their may be an aspiring golf course architect with a LA degree looking for a job  

[Daryn_Soldan]

Ryan,

As a fellow landscape architecture student (2nd year of the masters program at Kansas State) with leanings toward GCA I can feel your pain. There are plenty of times when course content wonders far from where I want it to and the whole process seems a bit tedious.  As a grad student I get to miss out on some of the architecture riff-raff, but it is a component of the undergrad program.  Here everyone starts in general architecture as a freshman before specializing later on.

My words of wisdom are to strongly second the advice of others to stay the course and stick it out.  It's funny how all of the useless information that we learn in school and life somehow comes back to help later on.  I got my undergrad degree in Agricultural Economics with a minor in Marketing.  So basically I ought to make a good farmer or a decent used car salesman.  Now that I've started to do a little research while thinking about my thesis, something along the lines of water resource management and golf course development in the western US, I'm finding out that all of that dry stuff I learned in ag law class about property and water rights is pretty darn useful.    

I agree that sitting in history class and analyzing the design tendencies of Capability Brown isn't the most exciting way to spend 3 nights a week. But he did create some nice rolling landscapes with long vistas that would be nearly ideal for golf.  And some of those ever present water features would work wonderfully for a strategic cape hole.    So it can't be all bad.

From what I've gathered on this site and from discusions with LAs and GCAs it doesn't much matter what part of the architecture design fields you go into, you'll learn more from a couple good summer internships or doing some type of landscape construction job than you will from most of your school studies.

As far as AutoCad goes, I seem to be having the same experience.  I'm at a school that prides itself in turning out very technically savy LAs, but I've already taken our LA computer applications course and sitting down at the computer and opening AutoCad still scares the crap out of me.  We are starting to use it more this semester for our design studio and in our construction class so its going to be learning in the fire.  

Just don't forget how to design and understand what you are doing without the computer.  A good example is the capstone projects that the undergrads do in their final year here.  Last year 3 of them did golf related projects.  You could really tell the difference between the guys who's exposure to GCA had been summer internships sitting in an office inputing design drawings into AutoCad for a golf course architecture firm versus a guy like Zach Borg who has interned for Tom Doak, knows his way around a piece of machinery and has spent time out in the field.  He was just much more at ease when it came to forming a cohesive routing plan and getting his thoughts onto paper.  The oportunity to spend significant time in the field seems very valuable.  The funny thing is that Zach is as good or better at all of the computer stuff, including AutoCad, than anyone.  I don't want this to sound like an anti-computer rant because its far from it.  I just wouldn't get to hung up on it. All of our 3rd year grad students just keep telling me that after one or two classes using it, its like second nature.

The final piece of advice I have has probably been what has helped me the most.  That is to find ways to motivate yourself with regards to your potential future in GCA.  I've tried to commit myself to learning about different aspects of the golf business whether it be from superintendents, general managers, pros, or just those who love golf.  I am still a young guy, 24, but its amazing how many of the "old guard" are more than willing to share their knowledge if you display some level of interest and willingness to learn.  There are many opportunities out there.  I'm getting some scholarship support form the Golf Course Builders Association of America this year.  So even if my classes may not have much to do with GCA, at least I feel a bit obligated to further my knowkedge on the subject.  Oh yeah, and the money helps too.  

Just keep working hard and if you ever want to discuss the joys of being a lowly LA student shoot me an e-mail.  Also, I'll be down in Phoenix in late December and early January for a wedding and to see some friends.  If you're around at that time, with holiday break and all, I'd love to see your work or head out for some golf.

-Daryn

[Jim Nugent]

Question for the architects who are responding.   You all urge Ryan to finish his degree.  Why?  What will he get out of it, and why is that better than his other alternatives?  

[paul cowley]

Ryan....unlike the other esteemed GCA's posting, I don't have the benefit of a degree so I can speak little about LA curriculum and courses.....but I have employed and worked with my fair share of LA's, [even married some], so I feel I can speak with some experience about their abilities and usefulness relating to GCArch [hell, even their emotions]....but I'm not going to....... but I will tell you that anything to do with PLANNING will be of more help than most other courses aside from civil and CAD.

Controlling and creating the routing is vital to being able to produce a good course and ones ability to impact the master plan is key.....not only when deciding where the course goes, but also where everything else goes as it relates to the course. Its the old yin/yang relationship.

Unfortunately planning and land use is one of those skillsets that can be taught but not 'learned' without real experience....kind of like this golf design sort of thing .

Good luck my young friend.

[Scott Witter]

Ryan:

Don't get too worked up over Mr. Cowleys post...you know how emotional he can be at times

Jim:

I think it is important for Ryan to finish school for much of the reasoning behind Ians thoughts, "Stick it out, because graduating at least shows that you’re capable of seeing something through from the start to the finish. That matters in life and I doubt you would regret graduating after the fact – there is a chance you will deeply regret quitting"  I would agree with this reasoning, now that could be more of a personal thing, but I do think it shows future employers a level of commitment, focus and responsibility.

Ryan:

My education and my work is very hands on because that is simply the way I work the best and enjoy it more, but it is also due to other personal/personality reasons, for I have always put more into everything I do than I usually get out.   While in school I was an older student, I grauated when I was 29, so my time there was completely focused on how I could get the most from the experience.  When I finally made the decision to go to college, after 7 years of building houses in the winter and working on golf courses from May 1 to November 1, I knew I was meant to be there and give it my full attention.  That isn't normal for a lot of younger folks who during this time really don't know what they want to do...

Before I went to school for LA I had already got a degree in civil engineering, so I had a lot of experience and exposure to surveying, soils, foundations, strength of materials, grading...which then allowed me so many more opportunities to take electives in LA such as more planning classes, more sketching, site planning and of course more time to study courses.

More to your question...yes I think since Auto CADD was still a thing in the future when I was in school, we/I did more practical applications with LA school and the programs themselves were geared differently than they are nowadays and I got out in the field more...sort of to see things get built as opposed to seeing images floating on a TV screen

Hope this all helps

[Bruce Katona]

Ryan: I was in school in the same era as Jeff, AutoCad didn't really exist.  We actually had to learn to draw by hand (even freehand straight lines).  I still am not very good with AutoCad but I  can draw. When you're in the field on a job site and need to give the contractor a picture of what you what built, you can't really go the the box and electronically create something.  It's usually is a sketch on the back of some handy piece of paper to express your design desire.  Knowing how to do that is really important.

You can go to a summer class or take one during semester break to laern the basic s of AutoCad or AutoCad Lite.  Someone else opined about the use of Planning in the profession.  Planning theory no, but land planning and design work hand in hand and is very important.

If you're really frustrated and have a litle free time, volunteer to intern during school with someone local. It can be either with a GCA or a local LA firm. (This is what I did. Made getting the first job out odf school much easier.  Had a big leg up on the others).  It's tough to have someone turn down free help from someone qualified. In addition looks really good on a resume.

[Ryan Farrow]

Again, I would like to thank everyone for their responses and I have learned quite a bit form this thread. I find it very interesting to hear about the different paths you have all experienced. I guess it shouldn’t be too surprising that many of you started off in some off the wall field. I only spent 1 semester in graphic design before I figured out that I needed more. I finally let the disease that is golf guide my career path.

Bruce, when we started our first studio they emphasized hand drawing and drafting for quite some time. As we progress they seem to encourage more computer drafting and modeling which has its benefits and disadvantages.  

Daryn, I’d like to talk more about your program, I’ll send you a PM in the future. What do you think about some of these other kids who want to be golf course architects in your program? There is one student in my class who is actually a pretty good friend but has no passion to learn. I know for a fact he has never read a book on the subject or couldn’t tell you a thing about the Golden Age. He seems to be more interested in his game than anything else.

[Marty Bonnar]

Ryan,
I have been (in roughly chronological order):

An Architect
A Landscape Architect
A Graphic Designer
A Marketing Executive
A STUDENT - again!
A Golf Course Architect
and once again - A Landscape Architect.

Trust me - finish your degree. An ASLA after your name will go a long way when the golf design business once again goes belly-up...

FBD.

[Mike_Young]

Ryan,
I would definitely say FINISH.....but GCA can be entered via many different ways.....LAR is just one.....
Let's see.....
Pete Dye- insurance
Tom Fazio- I was told he went to work for uncle George right out of highschool
Jack Nicklaus-  professional golf
Well....don't know.....the main thing is how much you want it.....you can always hire the LAR's if you need them......and IMHO there are two  things needed to be sucessful in this business....the ability to sell to the client and the passion to keep at it.... LAR would be a nice addition..but not a necessity....

[Nathan Cashwell]

I echo the advice that the other LA grads have given you, stick with it, especially since you made it so far.  It is YOUR education, you make of it what you want.  Make sacrifices to take classes that will help you reach your goal.  However, do yourself a huge favor and get some experience in the maintenance and construction sides of the industry.  I learned more in 3 months on site, than I did in 3 years of grad school in an LA program.  There are just some things that you can't teach in a school setting and you'll never learn everything.  Anyone in this industry who claims that they are not continually learning is either lying or not trying hard enough.  One last thing: HAVE FUN, that is what it's all about after all.  I know I didn't spent all of that money, time, and frustration for nothing.  Good luck and hang in there.

[Jim Nugent]

However, do yourself a huge favor and get some experience in the maintenance and construction sides of the industry.  I learned more in 3 months on site, than I did in 3 years of grad school in an LA program.

Sorry to beat the horse, but this sentiment makes me wonder why school wins out, if indeed you learn so much more on the job.  

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

Ryan might well get further ahead in his education over the next two years by starting work in the field, than through two more years of school, but only IF he could find the right job which allowed him to learn and grow.  And there are a LOT of young guys who already have LA degrees trying to get those few good jobs.

But to Paul Cowley's point, sooner or later you have to learn how to design something, and in most golf architects' offices you are not going to get that opportunity for some time.  College professors are paid to instruct you; bosses want you to take care of all the work they don't enjoy.

It is worth noting that of my eight design associates, seven have college degrees, but only three of them have degrees in landscape architecture or environmental design.  The eighth guy worked in golf course construction straight out of high school, and he is as good as any of the others.

[TEPaul]

In my opinion, the ultimate question is not whether you should stay in that landscape architecture course but whether landscape architecture really is essential in golf course architecture---or for that matter even necessary.

[Steve Burrows]

The study of Landscape Architecture is, among other things, the study of solving problems.  By that rationale, a degree in mathematics or philosophy might be equally as valuable.  And, moreover, I believe that the golf course world needs could use fresh faces with a wide range of educational, life and work experience (e.g. Philadelphia hoteliers like Crump and Pittsburgh steel magnates like Fownes).

However, our society has a tendency to pigeon-hole college graduates into their oftentimes arbitrarily decided-upon majors.  But, if a person truly wanted to become a golf course designer, there should be no constraints on which piece of paper the person possesses actually says with respect to a major.  Myself, I have degrees in English and Landscape Architecture and I am a superintendent.  And more than this, there is not a day that goes by where I don't use something from both disciplines on the job.  

That being said, however, I think most here would agree that Landscape Architecture is the most closely related professional degree program.  But again, too often people (especially on thsi discussion board) undermine the connection between Landscape Architecture and golf course architecture.  But the relationship is not as literal as we might want it to be.  Its value, then,  is perhaps not in the specific knowledge that a person learns in a given class, but rather, it is the totality of information provided in the range of studio classes (from site planning, to community planning, to regional planning, etc) that can be adapted to golf course design by the savvy student/designer.

[paul cowley]

Steve....good post and welcome aboard!
....and in golf I am probably one of those that raises an eyebrow towards LA's...they need to prove themselves...even though I have been and am still one.

Oh the shame and the glory!

[Tom_Doak]

Steve:

I have a math/chemistry major working for me.  And another with a degree in microbiology.  You are totally correct, the job is about problem-solving.

Tom P:

If you were ONLY going to design golf courses that never had a building or a resort or anything else around them, then landscape architecture would not be too relevant to golf course design -- other than learning how to do grading which is a significant part of the curriculum.  But when you do projects with housing involved, knowing how to speak to your former classmates goes a long way toward getting the good land for golf.

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