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Phil Benedict

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Great Courses in the Middle of Nowhere
« on: September 05, 2006, 11:40:14 AM »
After reading Ran's review of Ballyneal, I was struck by the fact most of Tom Doak's most praised work has been in pretty out the way places, with the exception being Sebonack.  The sites are all spectacular.  The same can be said for the most beloved modern course on this site, Sand Hills.

What's more impressive - building a great course in the middle of a real estate development or on an unpromising site (eg. Winged Foot or Wannamoisett), or building one in some remote place where the architectural possibilities are endless?







cary lichtenstein

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Re:Great Courses in the Middle of Nowhere
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2006, 11:49:13 AM »
The great sites rule
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Ryan Heiman

Re:Great Courses in the Middle of Nowhere
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2006, 12:33:11 PM »

What's more impressive - building a great course in the middle of a real estate development or on an unpromising site (eg. Winged Foot or Wannamoisett), or building one in some remote place where the architectural possibilities are endless?



Personally I think it is hard to build a great course in the middle of a real estate development.  What I mean by that is no matter how great the course is, and I am sure there are some great ones, the course always has homes on it.  To me this one thing I can't stand on a golf course.  I love to get away from homes and subburbs and play out in nature, the more nature the better.  That doesn't mean a course in the middle of no where is great or a course in the middle of houses is bad, just simply it helps to have a course with out houses around it.  My most recent adventure at Erin Hills is a prime example.  Almost no houses in site.  That is golf to me.  If you think of most great courses, there are very few homes on them. or even other buildings, besides clubhouses and maybe a hotel.  Just my opinion
« Last Edit: September 05, 2006, 05:09:51 PM by Ryan Heiman »

Phil McDade

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Re:Great Courses in the Middle of Nowhere
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2006, 12:39:52 PM »
Pretty good courses with houses in view (as in, you could maybe fly one into somebody's den):

Winged Foot West
Merion East
Pebble Beach
Mid-Ocean
Hoylake
Lytham & St. Anne's

Others?

Jon Wiggett

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Re:Great Courses in the Middle of Nowhere
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2006, 12:45:07 PM »
Phil,

don't forget that with Lytham and Hoylake both courses were there before most of the houses. Lytham is also like prestwick as you can also hit the 5.45 train to liverpool.

APBernstein

Re:Great Courses in the Middle of Nowhere
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2006, 12:51:14 PM »
Quote
Pretty good courses with houses in view (as in, you could maybe fly one into somebody's den):

Winged Foot West
Merion East
Pebble Beach
Mid-Ocean
Hoylake
Lytham & St. Anne's

Others?

Pinehurst #2.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2006, 12:51:42 PM by Andrew Bernstein »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Great Courses in the Middle of Nowhere
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2006, 12:53:13 PM »

Pretty good courses with houses in view (as in, you could maybe fly one into somebody's den):

Winged Foot West
Merion East
Pebble Beach
Mid-Ocean
Hoylake
Lytham & St. Anne's

Which came first, the golf course or the houses ?



john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Courses in the Middle of Nowhere
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2006, 01:00:06 PM »
Mountain Lake in central Florida was near the center of the middle of nowwhere in 1915 !

Phil McDade

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Re:Great Courses in the Middle of Nowhere
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2006, 01:01:55 PM »
"To me this one think I can't stand on a golf course.  I love to get away from homes and subburbs and play out in nature, the more nature the better.  That doesn't mean a course in the middle of no where is bad or a course in the middle of houses is bad, just simply it help to have a course with out houses around it."

Umm, my response re. WF, Merion et al. was to this section of the thread. I've rarely (never, come to think of it) heard/read anyone suggest the experience of playing these courses was somehow lessened by the presence of houses.


ed_getka

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Re:Great Courses in the Middle of Nowhere
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2006, 02:34:26 PM »
Pasatiempo
Wild Horse
Lawsonia
and on and on and on
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Brian Joines

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Re:Great Courses in the Middle of Nowhere
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2006, 03:04:51 PM »
Crooked Stick is a good example of a successful housing devlopment course.

Ryan Heiman

Re:Great Courses in the Middle of Nowhere
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2006, 05:17:34 PM »
As I reread the original post, I would say the most impressive courses would be building a course in a residential area, but yet one that does not feel residential.  And one that feels to fit with the land.  I think it would be hard to build a links course like this.

A couple of houses are fine, I am talking about hole after hole of house lined fairways.  I don't know many great courses where every hole has OB as people's back yards.

One of the few courses that had this on most holes that I still really enjoyed was Troon North.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Great Courses in the Middle of Nowhere
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2006, 05:23:37 PM »
Ryan, I got a better idea:

Why not everyone who has posted here list why all of this courses are architecturally "GREAT." (As in Tony the Tiger "GGGGGGGREAT."

(Not Patrick, He already knows what "GGGGGGGREAT." is!)

If it means picking up a book like The World Atlas of golf to figure out why, then please by all means do it.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Courses in the Middle of Nowhere
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2006, 05:28:35 PM »
As I reread the original post, I would say the most impressive courses would be building a course in a residential area, but yet one that does not feel residential.  And one that feels to fit with the land.  I think it would be hard to build a links course like this.

A couple of houses are fine, I am talking about hole after hole of house lined fairways.  I don't know many great courses where every hole has OB as people's back yards.

One of the few courses that had this on most holes that I still really enjoyed was Troon North.

But the houses themselves are not really in play at Troon North... although perhaps I was hitting it straighter back then. I seem to recall Westchester CC in Harrison hardly has a fence between the course and some folks' backyards... Belmont and Winchester up here in Mass are really tight with the houses. When you stand on the 1st tee at Winchester CC, you can hardly believe there is enough room for 18 holes, let alone 18 pretty darn good ones.
Next!

Doug Ralston

Re:Great Courses in the Middle of Nowhere
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2006, 05:32:59 PM »
I see you are all beginning to catch on. Kentucky IS in 'the middle of nowhere'; so it stands to reason it MUST have some great courses!!  :D

Doug

Phil Benedict

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Re:Great Courses in the Middle of Nowhere
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2006, 05:40:01 PM »
I guess the point I was trying to make is that Doak - to use one example - has benefitted from fantastic sites in places that are hard to get to.  To a certain extent his architecture is a product of modern transportation and wealthy patrons who are willing to put a lot of money behind their vision.  In fairness, he's earned this patronage by the quality of his prior work.  

By and large, the Golden Age architects built courses pretty close to where people lived, although Augusta National may be an exception to this observation.  Ross had to find a way to fit a course onto 100 acres at Wannamoisett, while Tilly had to make the bland landscape at Winged Foot into something world class.  The patrons for these courses wanted something close by where they could play frequently.

The architectural challenge of Ballyneal or Sand Hills, with all that space and built-in wow factor, is quite different from the task of creating interest in a populated area where you take what you can get as far as the land is concerned.

cary lichtenstein

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Re:Great Courses in the Middle of Nowhere
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2006, 05:48:52 PM »
Phil:

The plain truth is that you'll never get a great course with a small ordinary site, regardless if the architect is Ross, Doak, C & C, or McKenzie.  You can get a good course, not a great one.

Augusta has beautiful rolling land. Topography gives the architect the slate to either excel or miss.

Cary
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Garland Bayley

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Re:Great Courses in the Middle of Nowhere
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2006, 05:50:34 PM »
If the clubhouse at Firestone is simply an immovable obstruction, then who do these people that live on golf courses think they are that they can declare their yards to be OB ??? ??? >:( >:(

In all likely hood they are required to have their grounds maintained by the people choosen by the golf course. I say the rules of golf be changed to add the Tiger rule: On course houses are immovable obstructions that are in bounds!

Now if you go over the house into the public street beyond, I guess you could be rightfully considered to be out of bounds.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike Policano

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Re:Great Courses in the Middle of Nowhere
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2006, 06:28:09 PM »
Phil,

I think it is equally impressive for an architect to produce a great course whether on great property or bland property.  Arguably, an architect is under greater pressure to produce a great course on a great property.

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