Capability Brown vs Gertrude Jekyll

[T_MacWood]

TE
Now, now, no need for profanity. I think I gave you a little more than ground zero.

It appears at this late date you still do not understand the A&C movement (evidently those summers at the English vernacular home were not as effective as we thought).

Of course Park did not build greens that looked like Morris wallpaper. And Morris wallpaper bore no resemblance to a Lutyens houses and a Lutyens house bore no resemblance to a Jekyll garden. They were all inspired by vernacular models. I know you are a reasonably intellegent person....this concept should not be that difficult.  

[TEPaul]

"Of course Park did not build greens that looked like Morris wallpaper. And Morris wallpaper bore no resemblance to a Lutyens houses and a Lutyens house bore no resemblance to a Jekyll garden. They were all inspired by vernacular models. I know you are a reasonably intellegent person....this concept should not be that difficult."

Tom MacWood:

Come on, you're still beating around the bush and evading answering the question. Obviously you must do that or we will see there isn't an answer that identifies and explains any direct connection.

What was it about Golden Age architecture that was inspired BY A/C MOVEMENT VERNACULAR MODELS? What was it?? Explain SOMETHING about Golden Age golf architectural features or something tangible that was inspired by A/C VENACULAR MODELS.  

Or else just continue to respond with generalities that identify no connection whatsoever between the A/C Movement and actual golf course architecture, because that's all you can do.

I'm pretty sure you know the assumptions and the conclusion of your essay has been found wanting but you are simply incapable of admitting it because you realize it will effect your credibility which of course it should.

[T_MacWood]

Explain SOMETHING about Golden Age golf architectural features or something tangible that was inspired by A/C VENACULAR MODELS.  

Come again?

[TEPaul]

"Quote from: TEPaul on Yesterday at 02:57:03pm
Explain SOMETHING about Golden Age golf architectural features or something tangible that was inspired by A/C VENACULAR MODELS.  

Come again?"


Precisely as I feared. In your essay you never mentioned any tangible connection between the English A/C Movement and GCA and you have yet to answer the question of what actual or tangible connection there ever was between the English A/C Movement and golf course architecture of the Golden Age but until now I didn't exactly realize you apparenly don't even understand the question.

No wonder you can't answer the question.  

Again, I'm simply asking you to cite some actual and tangible and physical examples how the English Arts and Crafts movement effected or influenced golf course architecture of the Golden Age. I've been asking you this for a long time now and you never do anything other than just avoid the question. Is it really possible you don't understand the question?

And don't give me naturalism either because the English A/C movement certainly didn't have an exclusive lock on the concept of "naturalism" in golf. The natual holes of the Scottish linksland were already there and long before for golf architects inland in England to copy when suitable inland sites were first discovered in the heathland and the time and resources first became available to build more natural man-made golf architecture on inland sites. Not to mention the interest to do so. What inspired architects such as Macdonald and obviously Park Jr to do what they did in America and inland England wasn't the A/C movement but the rudimentary and geometric crap that preceded their efforts at NGLA and Sunningdale and Huntercombe.

Macdonald said the thing that prompted him to do NGLA was the crap that preceded it. He said of that crap, "The very soul of golf shrieks". Does that sound to you like he was disgusted by what he saw or some direction or influence from the English A/C movement that had nothing whatsoever to do with golf or golf architecture?

Are you actually trying to say that it took the A/C movement in and around London that had nothing to do with golf or golf architecture to inform a Scottish linksland architect such as Park Jr, or Macdonald in America that the more natural model to follow was what was in Scotland and what they knew so well?

If you are, that suggestion should certainly seem absurd to most anyone with a modicum of logic.

[T_MacWood]

Explain SOMETHING about Golden Age golf architectural features or something tangible that was inspired by A/C VENACULAR MODELS.  

TE
I didn't understand your question, it made no sense to me....but then again most of your questions haven't made sense.

Are you still looking for the similar physical characteristics between Sunningdale and a Morris chair or Huntercombe and a Lutyen's design or Walton Heath and a Jekyll garden? A golf course is not chair...a chair is not garden....a garden is not wallpaper.... a wallpaper design is not a house...a house is not art pottery...

Obviously the vernacular inspiration for a Lutyens house design was different than the vernacular inspiration for Jekyll's garden, Park's golf course or Ashbee's metalware. Are you under the impression that Arts & Crafts is an easily defined style? The artists and craftsmen of that peiod borrowed from many different verancular traditions...for that reason there is no easily designed style.

The vernacular model for the turn of the century golf architects were the great links...which had been around for a long time...as you said. That's the idea of a revival.

Are you having trouble with the concept of vernacular...be it a language or a craft or an artistic form?  Something that developed or naturally evolved in a given region...like half-timbered architecture or the English cottage garden or a Persian rug or the Scottish links.

What I'm say is the Arts and Crafts movement was a period of reform and revival in a wide variety of design disciplines...and I'm also saying that attitude - that we now define as A&C - had a great effect upon a wide range of design disciplines including golf architecture.

I have confidence it will sink in eventually.

[TEPaul]

No, Tom MacWood, I'm having no trouble at all understanding what vernacular means, or style, movement, art form, discipline, reform, revival, variety, the Arts and Crafts movement or any other of the terms you use to contiinue to beat around the bush while refusing to answer the fundamental question on here.

"What I'm say is the Arts and Crafts movement was a period of reform and revival in a wide variety of design disciplines...and I'm also saying that attitude - that we now define as A&C - had a great effect upon a wide range of design disciplines including golf architecture."

That 'period' you are now conveniently calling the Arts and Crafts movement (period) was actually the Late Victorian Age and then the Edwardian Era which was a time of many movements and differing attitudes and great dynamics in many areas of life and thought. "We" are not now defining it as the Arts and Crafts period---you are.

Nevertheless, if you think it had a great effect upon a wide range of design disciplines including golf architecture why is it you're having so much difficutlty telling us what some of those actual, tangible and physical effects it had on golf architecture were?  

The obvious reason you're having so much trouble identifying those effects on golf architecture is you don't know what they are and I don't blame you for not knowing what they are.  

But if you are going to continue to insist the A/C movement was some powerful influence on the Golden Age of golf architecture and had some 'great effect' on it you better come up with something eventually. Or else simply admit that the literature of golf architecture to date is completely correct in assigning that influence to the Scottish linksland model and later that model of inland architecture in the English heathlands.

[T_MacWood]

That 'period' you are now conveniently calling the Arts and Crafts movement (period) was actually the Late Victorian Age and then the Edwardian Era which was a time of many movements and differing attitudes and great dynamics in many areas of life and thought. "We" are not now defining it as the Arts and Crafts period---you are.

Nevertheless, if you think it had a great effect upon a wide range of design disciplines including golf architecture why is it you're having so much difficutlty telling us what some of those actual, tangible and physical effects it had on golf architecture were?  

TE
That period that I'm convenietly calling the A&C? I don't think I invented the A&C movement...it is an historically accepted movement. Not only did I not come up with it, I didn't come up with its vernacular under-current. I also did not fabricate London and the home counties as its birthplace and center of influence. I also didn't event Country Life, Horace Hutchinson and the golf architecture and the A&C connections both had.

I'm not having any trouble showing how Huntercombe, Sunningdale and Walton Heath were modeled after the naturally evolved links in contrast to the Victorian inland courses they replaced - a reform and revival in golf architecture that mirrored what was occuring in the other arts and crafts of that period. I take it you've read about the dark ages of golf architecture and the golden age that followed modeled after the vernacular model....but perhaps not. I can recommend some good reads on the subject.

[TEPaul]

"TE
That period that I'm convenietly calling the A&C? I don't think I invented the A&C movement...it is an historically accepted movement. Not only did I not come up with it, I didn't come up with its vernacular under-current. I also did not fabricate London and the home counties as its birthplace and center of influence. I also didn't event Country Life, Horace Hutchinson and the golf architecture and the A&C connections both had."

Tom MacWood:

As usual you've once again almost totally misread what I've said to you in this on-going discussion. I've never maintained that you INVENTED any of those terms or movements or magazines. All I've maintained is that you've exaggerated their historical importance vis-a-vis the developement and maturation of golf course architecture. You've exaggerated their importance vis-a-vis golf course architecture to make the point that they powerfully influenced the maturation of golf architecture. It's a connection you've failed to make, in my opinion. One can maintain, as you have, that all art forms must somehow effect all other art forms otherwise some particular art form or discipline must be percieved to have operated and matured in some vacuum. I don't believe that's a realistic argument or one that's particularly interesting or edifying to know. What I would perfer to know is what specifically it was that influenced various art forms---eg what models they used and what it was that tangibly influenced them, as the linksland came to influence the young and maturing art form of golf architecture.

"I'm not having any trouble showing how Huntercombe, Sunningdale and Walton Heath were modeled after the naturally evolved links in contrast to the Victorian inland courses they replaced"

It seems to me that's precisely what I've been saying all along--and what is consistent with the literature of golf course architecture to date.

 "- a reform and revival in golf architecture that mirrored what was occuring in the other arts and crafts of that period. I take it you've read about the dark ages of golf architecture and the golden age that followed modeled after the vernacular model....but perhaps not. I can recommend some good reads on the subject."

Again, I'm well aware of the Arts and Crafts movement of that period, what it was and what it's essential theme was.

As you said, it evolved out of the religous sentiments of a Pugin and how those sentiments applied to religous building architecture and how it had evolved through the ages. It evolved under the artistic sentiments of Rushkin and then Morris and on into the social/economic and political sentiments of Morris in an art and craft and building architecture and landscape architecture context.

These things I do not question and haven't and I very much doubt I need you to recommend some books for me to understand accurately what they were. I don't think I need you to tell me constantly that I must have some "Holiday Inn Express" outlook on them. That I grew up in and around those actual influences is probably far more important to the understanding of them than anything you'll ever be able to glean from some books anyway.

In a real sense the English Arts and Crafts Movement was a revival and a reform back to sentiments and tangible influences of "The Gothick". There was a real and physical man-made art form there to revive and reform back to.

That is not the case with golf course architecture. There was nothing whatsover in a tangible man-made way for golf architecture to reform or revive back to as it was only 50 years old at best during the turn of the 20th century. Before that it had simply never existed before. Building architecture, landscape architecture, the art forms of arts and crafts had literally thousands of years of tangible man-made history at its disposal to look back upon and revive and reform back to, if desired.

This fact alone is a huge, huge difference if one is to compare what the A/C movement was about compared to what golf architecture was going through at a concurrent period around 1900.

This is not to say golf course architecture was in some vacuum---it was merely in its very first throes of maturation and coming of age for the first time.

The set of circumstances for golf architecture around 1900 therefore were about as different as they could possibly get from the art forms and disciplines of building or landscape or arts and crafts disciplines and designs.

The inherent model for the young art form of golf course architecture was not something even man-made as all the other art forms involving the arts and crafts movement and its essential theme were.

Golf architecture's linksland model which did take about fifty years to take hold following golf's initial migratation from the Scottish Linksland into inland England was as different from A/C models as Nature is from Man.

Apparently you've never appreciated this massive distinction and difference or understood it. And this is precisely why I believe it is not an interesting or edifying thing to generalize to such an exaggerated extent as you have to make a connection between the A/C movement and GCA and to try to establish a powerful influence of the English A/C Movement on the Golden Age of Golf Architecture.

[T_MacWood]

As usual you've once again almost totally misread what I've said to you in this on-going discussion. I've never maintained that you INVENTED any of those terms or movements or magazines. All I've maintained is that you've exaggerated their historical importance vis-a-vis the developement and maturation of golf course architecture. You've exaggerated their importance vis-a-vis golf course architecture to make the point that they powerfully influenced the maturation of golf architecture. It's a connection you've failed to make, in my opinion. One can maintain, as you have, that all art forms must somehow effect all other art forms otherwise some particular art form or discipline must be percieved to have operated and matured in some vacuum. I don't believe that's a realistic argument or one that's particularly interesting or edifying to know. What I would perfer to know is what specifically it was that influenced various art forms---eg what models they used and what it was that tangibly influenced them, as the linksland came to influence the young and maturing art form of golf architecture.

I don't believe I have exagerated its influence...if anything has been exagerated its due to your constant bombardment of the essay. Its only natural that it becomes exagerated when its being picked apart on a regualr basis and I'm forced to defend it.  

I have not maintained that all art forms must somehow effect all other art forms....what I have said is the period in question was one in which there was convergenance of the arts. It was an extraordinary period, quite unusual and this phenomenon or convergence is well doucmented.

"I'm not having any trouble showing how Huntercombe, Sunningdale and Walton Heath were modeled after the naturally evolved links in contrast to the Victorian inland courses they replaced"

It seems to me that's precisely what I've been saying all along--and what is consistent with the literature of golf course architecture to date.

Is this news to you? We've both been saying it the entire time...what the literature does not go into is why. What I attempted to do was explain why by relating it to what was occuring in society at that place and time.

In a real sense the English Arts and Crafts Movement was a revival and a reform back to sentiments and tangible influences of "The Gothick". There was a real and physical man-made art form there to revive and reform back to.

Wrong. The Gothic revival was an architectural movement in the mid-19th C. It was over by the time the A&C movement (which was much more than an architectural movement) was its high point in the late 19th early 20thC. Gothic revival was important because it emphasized the vernacular aspect of Gothic architecture. The A&C movement went well beyond Gothic and architecture.

That is not the case with golf course architecture. There was nothing whatsover in a tangible man-made way for golf architecture to reform or revive back to as it was only 50 years old at best during the turn of the 20th century. Before that it had simply never existed before. Building architecture, landscape architecture, the art forms of arts and crafts had literally thousands of years of tangible man-made history at its disposal to look back upon and revive and reform back to, if desired.

If you define golf architecture as man creating or laying out a circuit to play the game over, than golf architecture is as old as the game itself and that is lot more than fifty years.


This fact alone is a huge, huge difference if one is to compare what the A/C movement was about compared to what golf architecture was going through at a concurrent period around 1900.

Based on your understanding of events I can see why you feel that way.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood said:

"I'm not having any trouble showing how Huntercombe, Sunningdale and Walton Heath were modeled after the naturally evolved links in contrast to the Victorian inland courses they replaced"

TEPaul replied:

"It seems to me that's precisely what I've been saying all along--and what is consistent with the literature of golf course architecture to date."

Tom MacWood responded;

"Is this news to you? We've both been saying it the entire time...what the literature does not go into is why. What I attempted to do was explain why by relating it to what was occuring in society at that place and time."

Tom MacWood:

If you're now admitting that the Scottish linksland, particularly TOC was the model for the heathland architecture exemplified by the likes of Sunningdale and Huntercombe et al, then one surely does wonder why you suggested in your essay that the great Golden Age of golf architecture was powerfully influenced by the English Arts and Crafts movement to the extent that you titled your essay "Arts and Crafts Golf" and suggested the Golden Age should be more appropriately relabeled "Arts and Crafts Golf"?

Again, for about the tenth time---why don't you identify SOMETHING actual and tangible about golf architecture of the Golden Age that was the result of any influence from the English Arts and Crafts Movement? You're very good at avoiding answering this direct question but I'm going to keep asking anyway.    

[TEPaul]

"If you define golf architecture as man creating or laying out a circuit to play the game over, than golf architecture is as old as the game itself and that is lot more than fifty years."

That's a big IF. You might define golf architecture that way but I don't, and I doubt many would. I define golf architecture as beginning perhaps with Alan Robertson and beginning with the first man-made earthen features specifically for golf, such as the Road Hole bunker and the Road Hole green which many consider to be the first example of something man-made specifically for golf---ie architecture.

About a year ago a neighbor of mine layed out a route around which we could play golf around his house during a party but I wouldn't exactly call him a golf architect, any more than I'd call some of those early pre-architecture layouts in Scotland (pre 19th century) architecture.  

"I don't believe I have exagerated its influence...if anything has been exagerated its due to your constant bombardment of the essay. Its only natural that it becomes exagerated when its being picked apart on a regualr basis and I'm forced to defend it."

Of course you don't believe you've exaggerated it but you most certainly have. The constant bombardment of your essay is nothing more than a critical exegesis of your essay, not an exaggeration. That is a necessary thing to do if someone tries to advocate historical revisionism. As far as being forced to defend your essay, that's something anyone should be able to do if it's historically accurate. You're doing a worse job of defending your essay than you did coming up with it in the first place.

Oh, by the way, could you identify ANYTHING actual or tangible about golf architecture that was a direct influence from the English A/C Movement?  

[T_MacWood]

Tom MacWood:

If you're now admitting that the Scottish linksland, particularly TOC was the model for the heathland architecture exemplified by the likes of Sunningdale and Huntercombe et al, then one surely does wonder why you suggested in your essay that the great Golden Age of golf architecture was powerfully influenced by the English Arts and Crafts movement to the extent that you titled your essay "Arts and Crafts Golf" and suggested the Golden Age should be more appropriately relabeled "Arts and Crafts Golf"?

Again, for about the tenth time---why don't you identify SOMETHING actual and tangible about golf architecture of the Golden Age that was the result of any influence from the English Arts and Crafts Movement? You're very good at avoiding answering this direct question but I'm going to keep asking anyway.    

TE
I've always said the links were the model for those famous courses at the turn of the century, which is consistant with A&C movement and their vernacular inspiration. The A&C movement was the catalyst for wide range of arts and crafts...reforming Victorian design and reviving past traditions.

I'm not sure I understand your last question....what would be hypothetical example? For example can you identify something actual and tangible about architecture or garden design that was the result of any influence from the English Arts and Crafts Movement?

[T_MacWood]

 I define golf architecture as beginning perhaps with Alan Robertson and beginning with the first man-made earthen features specifically for golf, such as the Road Hole bunker and the Road Hole green which many consider to be the first example of something man-made specifically for golf---ie architecture.

TE
What do you call what the Scots were doing when they were laying out golf courses on and in the dunes one- or two-hundred or more years before to Al Robertson?

[TEPaul]

"I'm not sure I understand your last question....”

Tom MacWood:

You can’t be serious. You really don’t understand my question? It’s the same one I’ve asked you about ten times now and the same one you keep avoiding completely or keep saying you don’t understand the question. Here’s the question again;

“Again, for about the tenth time---why don't you identify SOMETHING actual and tangible about golf architecture of the Golden Age that was the result of any influence from the English Arts and Crafts Movement?”

How is that question so hard to understand?

“what would be hypothetical example? For example can you identify something actual and tangible about architecture or garden design that was the result of any influence from the English Arts and Crafts Movement?”

No, I cannot. I leave that kind of STUFF to you. You’re the one who’s been trying to make this A/C connection, not me. You’re the one who’s claimed that Jekyll was an A/C garden designer, not me. Did she refer to herself as an A/C garden designer?? Did Luytens refer to himself as an A/C building architect? You seem to be the only one who’s laying this generalized A/C label on practically every art form around London at the turn of the century, including golf course architecture. Is that a historically accurate thing to do? I’ve spoken to a few English A/C Movement and Victorian Age authorities who say it is not.

Why ask for some hypothetical example at all?. I’ll give you an actual example, not a hypothetical one. This is an actual example you also seem to refuse to admit, as patently obvious as it is.

There is no question at all that steeplechase jump obstacles directly influenced the early rudimentary inland English Victorian age bunker features. It’s virtually impossible to escape or deny. They were so similar as to be almost identical. In some cases they probably were steeplechase pits and berms that were used for early Victorian style golf bunker features. The photographs alone that have been posted on this website prove it. But it occurs to me you may not know what a steeplechase berm and pit obstacle jump looks like.

That is an actual and tangible example of a direct influence on golf architecture of a particular era. Another actual and tangible example of a direct influence of Scottish linksland architecture on Golden Age architecture is all over a really significant Golden Age course such as NGLA. But perhaps you weren’t aware of that.  

[TEPaul]

"TE
What do you call what the Scots were doing when they were laying out golf courses on and in the dunes one- or two-hundred or more years before to Al Robertson?"

What I call that is nature's gift to man, the golfer, nothing more. To me that kind of thing one or two hundred years BEFORE Robertson does not qualify as man-made golf architecture. That kind of thing I call "path of least resistance golf". It was not golf architecture at all. Max Behr called it "wild" golf, meaning it was almost exclusively natural with about zero enhancement or input by man--eg a golf architect. That kind of thing was basically no different than what my neighbor did around his house for that party. In those days in Scotland they didn't really even play golf in the summer months. Do you even know that or why?  

[T_MacWood]

TE
The reason I asked for a clarificantion or a hypothetical was because your question reflects a general misunderstanding of the A&C movement.

[T_MacWood]

No, I cannot. I leave that kind of STUFF to you. You’re the one who’s been trying to make this A/C connection, not me. You’re the one who’s claimed that Jekyll was an A/C garden designer, not me. Did she refer to herself as an A/C garden designer?? Did Luytens refer to himself as an A/C building architect? You seem to be the only one who’s laying this generalized A/C label on practically every art form around London at the turn of the century, including golf course architecture. Is that a historically accurate thing to do? I’ve spoken to a few English A/C Movement and Victorian Age authorities who say it is not.

TE
Did anyone call themsleves a Renaissance architect or artist?

You've been spending too much time of the Victorian website....you need to open a book or two on the A&C movement and/or British Art History...there are many.

[T_MacWood]

"TE
What do you call what the Scots were doing when they were laying out golf courses on and in the dunes one- or two-hundred or more years before to Al Robertson?"

What I call that is nature's gift to man, the golfer, nothing more. To me that kind of thing one or two hundred years BEFORE Robertson does not qualify as man-made golf architecture. That kind of thing I call "path of least resistance golf". It was not golf architecture at all. Max Behr called it "wild" golf, meaning it was almost exclusively natural with about zero enhancement or input by man--eg a golf architect. That kind of thing was basically no different than what my neighbor did around his house for that party. In those days in Scotland they didn't really even play golf in the summer months. Do you even know that or why?  

That sounds like vernacular architecture:

"Vernacular architecture is a term used to categorize a method of construction which uses immediately available resources to address immediate needs. As such, it is often dismissed as crude and unrefined.
The term is derived from the Latin vernaculus, meaning "native," and therefore refers to all architecture which is indigenous to a specific place (not imported or copied from elsewhere). As this represents the majority of historical construction (and much continuing practice in developing countries), it is often confused with "traditional" architecture. Vernacular architecture may, though time, be adopted and refined into culturally accepted solutions, but only through repetition may it be become "traditional." Through such processes vernacular architecture can provide highly sophisticated adaptation to both the environment and to user's needs.

Once regarded as obsolete, vernacular architecture is now the subject of serious academic study, and is increasingly considered a potential component of sustainable development for its quality of adaptation to the local environment."

[TEPaul]

“TE
The reason I asked for a clarificantion or a hypothetical was because your question reflects a general misunderstanding of the A&C movement.”

Tom MacWood:

My question reflects a general misunderstanding of the A/C Movement?? How is that?

Here’s my question again;

‘Again, for about the tenth time---why don't you identify SOMETHING actual and tangible about golf architecture of the Golden Age that was the result of any influence from the English Arts and Crafts Movement?’

I’ve been asking you for some actual and tangible examples of how the A/C movement influenced the Golden Age of Golf Architecture and all you can do is constantly say the question reflects a misunderstanding of the A/C Movement? You’re the one who wrote a five-part essay entitled “Arts and Crafts Golf” suggesting the English A/C Movement and later A/C movements were powerful influences on the Golden Age of Golf Architecture and now you’re incapable of identifying anything at all actual and tangible that was an influence? That’s awfully weak and not much of a defense of your theory and conclusion.

You say it was a “philosophy”, an “attitude” that was so general or so pervasive those who were influenced by it were not aware of it. That’s also a very weak contention for a powerful influence on an art form. You say it didn’t have a name. I can certainly accept that but you also say that only historians can identify this kind of an influence and not those who were influenced by it at the time. To me, that smacks of real rationalization and more—perhaps arrogance and certainly historical revisionism. That you are trying to suggest that you are more aware of what it was that influenced the architects of the Golden Age than they were is patently preposterous. That smacks of someone who is attempting to be an opportunist with history writing.

Even if I was willing to concede the point that the A/C movement was general and pervasive you still need to identify examples in golf architecture of how the A/C movement tangibly influenced golf architecture to support a contention that it was a powerful influence on golf architecture.

[TEPaul]

I said;

"What I call that is nature's gift to man, the golfer, nothing more. To me that kind of thing one or two hundred years BEFORE Robertson does not qualify as man-made golf architecture. That kind of thing I call "path of least resistance golf". It was not golf architecture at all. Max Behr called it "wild" golf, meaning it was almost exclusively natural with about zero enhancement or input by man--eg a golf architect. That kind of thing was basically no different than what my neighbor did around his house for that party. In those days in Scotland they didn't really even play golf in the summer months. Do you even know that or why?"  
 
Your response;

"That sounds like vernacular architecture:"

I don't think so and apparently either does the literature of golf course architecture. Essentially what golf was one and two hundred years and more before Alan Roberston (considered to be the first golf architect) was a sport that existed without any form of man-made architecture at all, with the exception of man making a hole in the ground. It was essentially the use of raw nature unaltered in the pursuit of a sport. In this way it was of no real difference than hunting and fishing, and still today we do not have fishing architects and hunting architects.

Now you seem to be attempting to massively generalize about golf pre-architecture to assign to it some form to be known as "vernacular" golf architecture. This is nothing more than additional rationalization and historic revisionism of the entire subject of golf course architecture.

The literature of golf course architectue has tried to pin-point the very first examples of golf architecture and I, for one, believe they have done a very good job of it by identifying Robertson and what he initially did at TOC.

Are you know attempting to say that is wrong and golf architecture existed one and two hundred years and more before him??  

Achitecture, n. 1. The profession of designing buildings, open spaces, communities, etc. usually with some regard to aesthetic effect. 2. The character and style of building.

This thread is about Capability Brown vs Gertrude Jekyll. Lancelot Brown actually designed man-made forms to more closely mimic natural formations compared to the man-made landscape designs that came before him. The fact is a number of early golf courses were layed out using those man-made formations Capability Brown designed and constructed perhaps one hundred and more years before golf course architecture existed in inland England. The same is not true of Gertrude Jekyll and what she did in landscape design.

It is of course tempting to theorize about certain things. But if one does that and attempts to draw connections and then powerful influences between various things one does need to produce supporting evidence in the way of some tangible influences. You have not done that with your A/C theory, and worse yet you refuse to do it. It's of little wonder why. I have produced tangible evidence of a connection and influence with rudimentary golf obstacles and steeplechase obstacle features and to a lesser degree with what Lancelot Brown produced that was later used for golf courses in inland Englaind in the late 19th century and in the 20th century.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Perhaps we should close down this discussion now as your only response and your only defiense of your theory is not a good one and not interesting or informative. Your only response is to constantly remind those who disagree with your theory that they don't understand the A/C movement. First of all, that is not remotely the case and secondly that kind of response and defense is a really weak one.

That's a little like saying; "This is my theory and I support its accuracy and validity by the fact that anyone who doesn't agree with it does not understand the subject".  

Not very good at all.  

[T_MacWood]

“TE
The reason I asked for a clarificantion or a hypothetical was because your question reflects a general misunderstanding of the A&C movement.”

Tom MacWood:

My question reflects a general misunderstanding of the A/C Movement?? How is that?

Here’s my question again;

‘Again, for about the tenth time---why don't you identify SOMETHING actual and tangible about golf architecture of the Golden Age that was the result of any influence from the English Arts and Crafts Movement?’

I’ve been asking you for some actual and tangible examples of how the A/C movement influenced the Golden Age of Golf Architecture and all you can do is constantly say the question reflects a misunderstanding of the A/C Movement? You’re the one who wrote a five-part essay entitled “Arts and Crafts Golf” suggesting the English A/C Movement and later A/C movements were powerful influences on the Golden Age of Golf Architecture and now you’re incapable of identifying anything at all actual and tangible that was an influence? That’s awfully weak and not much of a defense of your theory and conclusion.

You say it was a “philosophy”, an “attitude” that was so general or so pervasive those who were influenced by it were not aware of it. That’s also a very weak contention for a powerful influence on an art form. You say it didn’t have a name. I can certainly accept that but you also say that only historians can identify this kind of an influence and not those who were influenced by it at the time. To me, that smacks of real rationalization and more—perhaps arrogance and certainly historical revisionism. That you are trying to suggest that you are more aware of what it was that influenced the architects of the Golden Age than they were is patently preposterous. That smacks of someone who is attempting to be an opportunist with history writing.

Even if I was willing to concede the point that the A/C movement was general and pervasive you still need to identify examples in golf architecture of how the A/C movement tangibly influenced golf architecture to support a contention that it was a powerful influence on golf architecture.

TE
Your question reflects a general misunderstanding of the A&C movement. That is why I asked: can you identify something actual and tangible about architecture or garden design that was the result of any influence from the English Arts and Crafts Movement?

The better question would have been can you identify SOMETHING actual and tangible about golf architecture of the Golden Age that was the result of the English Arts and Crafts Movement's promotion of vernacular designs?

For example Lutyen's Munstead Wood was inspired by the old cottages and farmhouses found in the Surrey and Sussex countryside (vernacular). The walls are made of local Bargate stone and the roof of handmade red tiles. The windows are small. The roof line is irregular and dips down to the first floor. All features found in the old vernacular cottages of Surrey. The huge chimney stack reflects Old English style.  The interior gallery is half-timbered...again Old English.

Like Munstead Wood Park's Huntercombe reflects vernacular tradition. The man-made hazards are made to emulate the hazards found on the links as opposed to the prevalent Victorian cop. The incorporation of natural features like ancient sand pits, broken ground and natural depressions....with gorse being a chief feature of the design. The utilization of a variety strategic ideas common on links courses...like the central hazard and diagonal hazard. Links-like variety as opposed to formulaic Victorian repetition. The nature of the greens...undulating as opposed to geometric platforms. And last but not least the huge scale of the place very much in the tradition of the great links.

[T_MacWood]

I said;

"What I call that is nature's gift to man, the golfer, nothing more. To me that kind of thing one or two hundred years BEFORE Robertson does not qualify as man-made golf architecture. That kind of thing I call "path of least resistance golf". It was not golf architecture at all. Max Behr called it "wild" golf, meaning it was almost exclusively natural with about zero enhancement or input by man--eg a golf architect. That kind of thing was basically no different than what my neighbor did around his house for that party. In those days in Scotland they didn't really even play golf in the summer months. Do you even know that or why?"  
 
Your response;

"That sounds like vernacular architecture:"

I don't think so and apparently either does the literature of golf course architecture. Essentially what golf was one and two hundred years and more before Alan Roberston (considered to be the first golf architect) was a sport that existed without any form of man-made architecture at all, with the exception of man making a hole in the ground. It was essentially the use of raw nature unaltered in the pursuit of a sport. In this way it was of no real difference than hunting and fishing, and still today we do not have fishing architects and hunting architects.

Now you seem to be attempting to massively generalize about golf pre-architecture to assign to it some form to be known as "vernacular" golf architecture. This is nothing more than additional rationalization and historic revisionism of the entire subject of golf course architecture.

The literature of golf course architectue has tried to pin-point the very first examples of golf architecture and I, for one, believe they have done a very good job of it by identifying Robertson and what he initially did at TOC.

Are you know attempting to say that is wrong and golf architecture existed one and two hundred years and more before him??  

TE
Are we supposed to believe that that anything prior to Alan Robertson (1850) is irrelevant...including the majority of the Old course? Man in conjunction with Nature was the first architect, and it began long before 1850. The day man walked into the dunes and began digging holes or creating targets to play toward (and in essence laying our or routing a golf course) was the day golf architecture began....from my vernacular point of view of course.

Have you read Guy Campbell's History of Golf in Britain?

How does the old farmhouse designed by a farmer fit into your defintion of architecture?

[T_MacWood]

This thread is about Capability Brown vs Gertrude Jekyll. Lancelot Brown actually designed man-made forms to more closely mimic natural formations compared to the man-made landscape designs that came before him. The fact is a number of early golf courses were layed out using those man-made formations Capability Brown designed and constructed perhaps one hundred and more years before golf course architecture existed in inland England. The same is not true of Gertrude Jekyll and what she did in landscape design.

It is of course tempting to theorize about certain things. But if one does that and attempts to draw connections and then powerful influences between various things one does need to produce supporting evidence in the way of some tangible influences. You have not done that with your A/C theory, and worse yet you refuse to do it. It's of little wonder why. I have produced tangible evidence of a connection and influence with rudimentary golf obstacles and steeplechase obstacle features and to a lesser degree with what Lancelot Brown produced that was later used for golf courses in inland Englaind in the late 19th century and in the 20th century.

TE
Actually this thread was continuation of another thread on a different subject and the Brown vs Jekyll angle was the result of Brad Klein’s suggestion that A&C philosophy may have been disseminated to golf architects (and likely the public in general) by the writing of Jekyll and other A&C garden artists in the popular press.

As you know A&C philosophy is very similar to what those early golf architects believed and wrote about. You then came up with a theory that Brown may have been an influence on early golf architecture as well…a very interesting idea which I hope you develop further some day.  

Perhaps we should close down this discussion now as your only response and your only defiense of your theory is not a good one and not interesting or informative. Your only response is to constantly remind those who disagree with your theory that they don't understand the A/C movement. First of all, that is not remotely the case and secondly that kind of response and defense is a really weak one.

That's a little like saying; "This is my theory and I support its accuracy and validity by the fact that anyone who doesn't agree with it does not understand the subject".  

Not very good at all.  

That is probably a good idea, especially for the sake of those (if there is anyone) who actually follow this never ending discussion.

Plus your recent arguments haven't really helped your case, for example:
....your opinion that since there isn’t a physical similarity between A&C art glass and a heathland green that the A&C movement couldn’t have been an influence…
….or your (misinformed) claim that the A&C movement was essentially a Gothic revival and since there weren’t any Gothic golf courses it couldn’t have been an influence…
….or your idea that anything before Robertson is irrelevant so there wasn't anything old enough to provided a vernacular model…
…or that you refuse provide any specific examples because I’m an arrogant ass and not too bright.

I’ll be generous and call it a stalemate.

[TEPaul]

"TE
Are we supposed to believe that that anything prior to Alan Robertson (1850) is irrelevant...including the majority of the Old course? Man in conjunction with Nature was the first architect, and it began long before 1850. The day man walked into the dunes and began digging holes or creating targets to play toward (and in essence laying our or routing a golf course) was the day golf architecture began....from my vernacular point of view of course."

Tom MacWood:

You should learn a whole lot better to read what people say to you. Show me where I said anything before Alan Robertson was irrelevent. I never said anything remotely like that. What Max Behr referred to as "wild" golf, that form of totally natural golf that preceded man-made golf architecture was hugely relevent, I'm sure. To understand it now is probably more interesting or necessary than ever before but it was not considered to be architecture. Golf architecture was born when man first began to really make features for golf, as it is believed Robertson was the very first man (architect) to do at TOC with the Road hole bunker, Road Hole green and perhaps the dedicated widening of the golf course. To say there were dedicated golf architects or golf architecture before Robertson is simply to attempt to make something out of nothing. I really don't know why you try to do things like that other than to make some point that golf architecture goes back to practically the middle ages as building architecture and landscape architecture does, and well before that. Your contention about the existence of golf architecture back that far is simply another attempt at historic revisionism to support an unsupportable point about the A/C Movement.


I am, however, happy to see that you seem to now be totally endorsing the fact that the Scottish linksland, and particularly TOC was THE model for golf architecture in the heathlands and on. As such it was the Golden Age's most powerful and primary influence.

You seem to continue to ask why it happened around the turn of the 20th century in inland England in the heathlands. I think the literature of golf architecture has been pretty informative about why that happened when it did, where it did and why it did but apparently those reasons didn't exactly register with you, and so you apparently felt you could go out and just create some of your own reasons. That would've been a fine undertaking if you'd been able to establish a connection but you haven't done that at all without the benefit of massive rationalization and generalization.