Architecture in other countries....different than here??

[Mike_Young]

Do other countries worry about the architectural pedigree of a course as much as we do???  I don't think so.  Would the game be better off if we did not???    If RE developers had not decided that golf created added lot value we probably would not be where we are.  

[Jordan Wall]

Do other countries worry about the architectural pedigree of a course as much as we do???  I don't think so.  

Never been but what about Scotland?

I thought that was where architecture originated..

[Mark Chaplin]

Mike,

In the UK possibly with the exception of a couple of Jack Nicklaus courses, Faldo at Chart Hills and Woosnam at Dale Hill (not a great course but well hyped) I do not think the consumer knows or really cares who designed the course, with modern courses it's often more about value for money, than good design features.

I think the same applies with Colt, Braid, MacKenzie etc a lot of golfers instinctively know a good layout but do not go out of their way to play courses by a specific architect....to me these courses are like Bond films you know it will follow a familiar theme, you feel at home watching it but it's also high quality with a few suprises.

Sadly Mr Dye or Mr Fazio have never designed a UK course to my knowledge, I look forward to seeing Mr Doak's new course in Gullane.

Mark

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

In the UK possibly with the exception of a couple of Jack Nicklaus courses, Faldo at Chart Hills and Woosnam at Dale Hill (not a great course but well hyped) I do not think the consumer knows or really cares who designed the course, with modern courses it's often more about value for money, than good design features.

I think the same applies with Colt, Braid, MacKenzie etc a lot of golfers instinctively know a good layout but do not go out of their way to play courses by a specific architect....to me these courses are like Bond films you know it will follow a familiar theme, you feel at home watching it but it's also high quality with a few suprises.

Sadly Mr Dye or Mr Fazio have never designed a UK course to my knowledge, I look forward to seeing Mr Doak's new course in Gullane.

Mark

This is what I perceived......hopefully you will see their work one day

[Andrew Summerell]

Mike,

This being a reasonably international web site, I assume the ‘different than here’ refers to America.

I’ve played in America, Canada, the U.K., New Zealand & of course, my home country Australia. I haven’t found golfers to be different anywhere in the world regarding architecture or particular designers. I have played with many Americans who had no idea about architectural pedigree, even when playing courses like Bethpage Black, Southampton, Garden City, etc. When I was playing Pacific Dunes, I referred to Doak & some other Doak courses I had played. The American guy I was playing with turned to me on the 8th & said, “What the hell is a Doak?”, as he was unaware who Tom Doak was, even though he was playing one of his courses. We had a good laugh about it over the next few holes.

Most of my golfing friends here in Australia are into golf course architecture & we often have long drawn out debates on the subject. I have gravitated to those people because they have the same interests as me, & you probably find the same with your friends. In Australia, many golf course housing developments are marketed on the name of the architect, although often for the wrong reasons.

[Gary Slatter]

I try to insert the designers of our courses (Wilson and RTJ2) as much as possible but basically our players don't give it much notice. There are exceptions but the important thing is the experience, not the pedigree.  I think maybe in the rest of the world golfers play against the course, in the US more often you play against the architect (fewer natural areas). I remember at Mad River so many members were always muttering about being "Cupped",blaming Bod Cupp when their ball rolled 30 feet off the side of a green. That's why I like GCA as it seems mainly to promote natural golf designs, and safe my maintenance budget.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Mike,

In the UK possibly with the exception of a couple of Jack Nicklaus courses, Faldo at Chart Hills and Woosnam at Dale Hill (not a great course but well hyped) I do not think the consumer knows or really cares who designed the course, with modern courses it's often more about value for money, than good design features.

I think the same applies with Colt, Braid, MacKenzie etc a lot of golfers instinctively know a good layout but do not go out of their way to play courses by a specific architect....to me these courses are like Bond films you know it will follow a familiar theme, you feel at home watching it but it's also high quality with a few suprises.

Sadly Mr Dye or Mr Fazio have never designed a UK course to my knowledge, I look forward to seeing Mr Doak's new course in Gullane.

Mark

I think most golf club secretarys dont even know who designed their course in the UK, as for the members probably only a few per cent would know, unless as Mark says' 'its by a known player' Peter Alliss courses, Nicklaus and probably Dave Thomas are the best illustrations and most know Faldo did Chart Hills. Pete Dye would be a well known name but probably it would take a well clued golfer to know that Fazio is an architect.

[Matt_Sullivan]

I mostly agree with Andrew. I have been a member of clubs in Australia, Indonesia, Singapore and China and have found there is a pretty low awareness of architecture in all these places.

In Asia, it is really only Nicklaus who is considered a name worthy of promotion at resorts and real estate developments in a  "come and play our Jack Nicklaus course" kind of way.

I would say that in Australia there is higher promotion of the architect, particularly for new courses and for courses designed by Greg Norman or Peter Thompson.

But I cannot remember anybody in any country I have played in (including the US) asking me during a round "Do you know who designed this course?".

[Forrest Richardson]

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=55

I think this answers your question.

[cary lichtenstein]

I have asked about 50 members of my club here in Florida who are members of clubs up north who designed their course and less than 10% knew.

At lunch, if someone tells me about a nice vacation spot and I ask who designed the course, no one other than Fred Ruttenberg or Dave Miller ever knows.

The rats ass comment is correct.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Mike,

Up here in Canada, there are a few names - lead by Stanley Thompson - that hold weight. I think serious Canadian golfers are in tune with who's designed what, much like our American cousins.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Here in Germany some clubs with really nice courses don't even know the architect... not to speak of the members.

Ulrich

[B. Mogg]

Do other countries worry about the architectural pedigree of a course as much as we do???  I don't think so.  Would the game be better off if we did not???    If RE developers had not decided that golf created added lot value we probably would not be where we are.  

Unfortunately golf does add value to realestate - both in terms of selling price and selling time so I don't think developers are making it up.

In terms of signature designers - we did have one client in China who enthused about Nicklaus's efforts in "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"!!

[Brian_Ewen]

More and more I find Golfers dont care who designed the course . As long as it looks like something off the US Tour then it must be good .

IMHO
Brian

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I'd agree with all that has been said above.  However, most people have heard of MacKenzie, because most courses here have (or aspire to) a 'MacKenzie green'.  I very much doubt that many here know anything of Fazio or Dye.  The names of the great players do carry weight in Europe: Nicklaus, Norman, Player, Faldo.  I should be surprised if the hordes who leave these shores and take off to the Algarve at this time of year would have a clue who Frank Pennink, Joe Lee, Martin Hawtree, Dave Thomas (unless, like me, you are able to remember him as a player), Ronald Fream, Rocky Roquemore, or Donald Steel might be.  They will have heard of Sir Henry Cotton, although I doubt they would have known that he designed golf courses, and that it was his course at Penina which opened the flood gates to golf tourism in the Algarve.

[Chris Cupit]

Mike,

Prior to our renovation I bet less than 5% of my membership knew that Joe Lee originally designed our course.

Unless it's a name course/club I'd bet the average golfer has no clue who designed the course--for the average guy, if it's green and the bev cart girl is pretty, they think it's a "great track"

[Chris Cupit]

Mike,

Just to vent a little more:

I think people play golf for many reasons: fun, exercise, competition and a few are inspired by the architectural side of design on a golf course.  To be fair, the overwhelming majority of our country's 16,000 courses (?) are not at all inspiring and for the most part, people don't care.

To sound horribly elitist, I would guess that most of us that post on this site have been very blessed to have been able to play some of the greatest golf courses in the world and we take a keen interest in the design and strategy of these courses.

The mantra for us may be, "The unexamined life (golf course) is not worth living (playing)" whereas for the great majority just out to kill some time, theirs may be "Ignorance is bliss".

I think the same proportion of golfers around the world would be similarly intrigued by architecture in golf.  The USA may have a slightly greater percentage interested in "who designed the course" not because they are really into design but because the architect is a reflection in many people's minds of how good the development/club/course is irrespective of what's actually there.

[Eric Franzen]

Here in Sweden the majority of golfers are more concerned with the condition of the course rather than who designed it. Not so strange  when you think about it since most of the courses that were built from the first half of the 20th century until now had major problems with drainage after rough winters.

A few swedish designers have made clear imprints in the mind of the mainstream golfer. For example I would estimate that a lot of them knows that Peter Nordwall is synomous with huge, undulated greens.

The gca-releated discussions in the major Swedish golf forum (at the Swedish Golf Federation's web site) mostly cover estimated construction budgets and visual impressions. Heated debates over specific details in a layout or certain shots doesn't exist.