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Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Firm and Fast, the R&A, and GCAs
« on: September 02, 2006, 02:28:58 PM »
The R&A have started a program called ‘Sustainable Golf’ which is pushing the concept of  golf course maintenance at a reasonable price for both the budget and the environment. A big part of this is pushing traditional greenkeeping, fescues and firm & fast for most situations.

My question is how many GCAs are aware of this program, if yes what do they think and are there any who are signed up to it?

TEPaul

Re:Firm and Fast, the R&A, and GCAs
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2006, 09:48:12 PM »
I can't believe no one has responded to this thread yet. Do you think there's any possibility the R&A can push this program our way over here in the Colonies?  ;)

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Firm and Fast, the R&A, and GCAs
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2006, 11:52:47 PM »
I haven't heard of it and seriously doubt the R&A would try to pull rank over the USGA?  

Its a great concept butttttt as usual, clubs and members say they want firm and fast but god forbid if they see any brown, then heads must roll.

I did play a very hilly mountain course a few weeks ago (Incline Village in Lake Tahoe) and I really have to give them credit, it was firm fast and green.   I had forgot how difficult a mountain course can be when its firm, much more difficult than a course that is flat.  Plus with altitude, it was really something.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Firm and Fast, the R&A, and GCAs
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2006, 01:04:01 AM »
T E Paul,

I am also some what suprised on the lack of response. It seems that we talk alot about it but is it really what we want?

If you want more information visit www.bestcourseforgolf.org
this is the website from the R&A program.

Joel it has nothing to do with trying to pull rank on anyone.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Firm and Fast, the R&A, and GCAs
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2006, 05:57:46 PM »
I'm aware of the program, but I don't know what to think of it.

No matter what the R & A and the USGA do, it is up to individual golf course superintendents and golf course owners to meet and exceed those standards.  The two governing bodies don't own a single course and so they cannot lead by example, only by rhetoric.  

I'm happy to say some of the courses we've done are setting a high standard for firm and fast, sustainable maintenance.  We'd love for all of our clients to be on board, but some have different standards.

PS  While in Scotland last month, I heard talk that the R & A's setup of Royal Liverpool had left a great deal of dead grass in its wake.  (Yes, it's possible for grass that color to just be dormant, but it's also possible to kill it if you put it under too much stress.)  Both the club and the R & A seemed to be happy to deal with renovating the turf in exchange for such a great championship ... but if the R & A is trying to set the standard for turf maintenance globally, killing the grass at the Open cannot be considered a great sales tool, can it?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2006, 06:01:45 PM by Tom_Doak »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Firm and Fast, the R&A, and GCAs
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2006, 08:38:51 PM »
Tom,

I'd love to hear the full story on that because there was similar talk after the Shinnecock US Open and the only thing dead out there was much of the fescue.

Assuming what you heard is correct, this would most certainly be a really bad year for the R & A to go really strong promoting this F&F idea, regardless of its benefits. But, on the flip side, if the real Shinnecock story had any carrying speed there just may be some momentum working in the desired (by me at least) direction.

Curious to hear more on this front. Can't really be a bad thing in the long run if you ask me.

ForkaB

Re:Firm and Fast, the R&A, and GCAs
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2006, 12:29:21 PM »
PS  While in Scotland last month, I heard talk that the R & A's setup of Royal Liverpool had left a great deal of dead grass in its wake.  (Yes, it's possible for grass that color to just be dormant, but it's also possible to kill it if you put it under too much stress.)  Both the club and the R & A seemed to be happy to deal with renovating the turf in exchange for such a great championship ... but if the R & A is trying to set the standard for turf maintenance globally, killing the grass at the Open cannot be considered a great sales tool, can it?

Well......20+ of the best and brightest of GCA will be playing Royal Liverpool just 4 weeks from today in Buda IV.  In the 19th hole, we'll put those ugly rumours to rest, or fan the flames if they are indeed true!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Firm and Fast, the R&A, and GCAs
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2006, 12:31:57 PM »
Rich:

Yes, indeed.  Hopefully you will get to meet the superintendent and hear the full story, although he may not want everything to be "on the record".

ForkaB

Re:Firm and Fast, the R&A, and GCAs
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2006, 12:51:12 PM »
Tom

Fortunately, we have at least one Forensic Agronomist in the party........

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Firm and Fast, the R&A, and GCAs
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2006, 06:39:31 PM »
I'm aware of the program, but I don't know what to think of it.

No matter what the R & A and the USGA do, it is up to individual golf course superintendents and golf course owners to meet and exceed those standards.  The two governing bodies don't own a single course and so they cannot lead by example, only by rhetoric.  

PS  While in Scotland last month, I heard talk that the R & A's setup of Royal Liverpool had left a great deal of dead grass in its wake.  (Yes, it's possible for grass that color to just be dormant, but it's also possible to kill it if you put it under too much stress.)  Both the club and the R & A seemed to be happy to deal with renovating the turf in exchange for such a great championship ... but if the R & A is trying to set the standard for turf maintenance globally, killing the grass at the Open cannot be considered a great sales tool, can it?

Tom,

if you don't know what to think of the R&A program then I think maybe you should inform yourself in more detail about it. Although it isn't the answer to all the problems it certainly is a good step in the right direction. It certainly couldn't hurt and you may find somethings in it very useful and informative. You will also find the people involved in it very open to questions and ideas and I am sure they would be thrilled if you were to contact them (assuming you haven't already).

Although I partially see why you saythe USGA and R&A only been able to lead by rhetoric it seems to me to be a very general statement that is only partially correct. It seems to me that the USGA was very sucessful with it's recommendations for golf green constructions not only with golf clubs and owners but also with most GCAs and this can't just be placed down to rhetoric. Indeed most of the people advising golf clubs on what to do don't own a course and certainly most superintendents don't nor for that matter most GCAs but that doesn't make their opinion or advice any less worthy.

The R&A probably has a closer contact with the club scene in the UK than the USGA in the US. It is in a position to influence things at the grass root level (excuse the pun). I firmly believe that it is important to support any such program that is helping golf find its true self again and leading it away from the dark days of the atomic green green. The R&A are investing a lot of time, effort and money into this program and to dimiss it as rhetoric is not doing justice to all the people who are working so hard on it. What is more important it is a program that grows through the active involvement of clubs, unions, greenkeepers, GCAs etc and anyone can be apart of it regardless of status and money.

I was at Hoylake last week and had the chance to talk to the greenstaff as well as look at the course. Yes there is some dead grass, no it has nothing to do with the 'R&As set up' but with the traffic the course took during the Open week and the effect of the hot and dry weather leading up to it. All the other clubs in the area looked pretty much the same on this point.

Lastly the program is not about trying to set any sort of global standard for turf maintenance like the DOAK scale isn't an attempt to judge the standard of all courses for all players. The R&A wishes to help clubs and courses to offer golfers quality golf with an affordable price tag. It isn't saying that this doesn't exist but there are many courses which are struggling to do this.

I much admire your stand on firm and fast even more so as you don't just talk it but actually live it through your work. Which is what the R&A, STRI as well as many clubs and greenkeepers are also doing through what they say and do.

Hope I didn't come across too strong but it is something I strongly believe in.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Firm and Fast, the R&A, and GCAs
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2006, 06:51:00 PM »
Jon:

The problem with such programs is that what starts out as an honest effort to solve a problem, becomes a "one size fits all" solution once it has the imprimateur of the USGA or the R & A.

You need look no further than the "USGA Green Construction method."  It was invented as a protocol for greens construction on unsuitable soils (silt and clay), but eventually became a standard which it was hard for architects to override, even on good soils where such construction was MORE costly and unnecessary.  The fact that USGA greens construction has taken on marketing significance in Britain, Europe and Australia shows how far-reaching the effects can be.

Quality golf with an affordable price tag is not so hard to achieve, if the aim is reasonable standards for turf conditioning and playability, and provided that the course has not already blown the bank on construction.  Established clubs which are failing are just spending too much for looks.  The R&A is miles ahead of the USGA in this part of the puzzle because they have consistently conditioned championship courses for playability and not for appearances -- the fact that they aren't throwing money at the problem in front of a live TV audience is a great start.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Firm and Fast, the R&A, and GCAs
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2006, 08:11:04 PM »
Tom,

Like many programs that end up as a 'one size fits all' some GCAs end up imposing the same golf holes on every project There are however some GCAs that are constantly discovering new holes in every new plot of land that they have to work with. Lets hope it is so with some programs!

If it is to be so then it is not enough to sit back and wait for it to happen. It is not enough to applaud and say what a good thing it is. It needs people who are serious about it to get invovled and help to keep the thing on course. To me anyone who is really interrested in fast and firm or good quality golf for John Doe should take a good look at this program and add his/her point of view.

GCAs have a lot of influence on their clients and as much as the the USGA, alot GCAs must carry a  portion of the blame for the over use of the GCA specs. There are still many out there today stipulating them for all sites because it is the easiest way to cover their backs. Its certainly is alot easier than explaining to the client why you need to rebuild a green, if you know what I mean.

But like most things it no good looking back and trying to decide what is wrong. You must look forward to discover where you are going.

People like yourself are making golfers look at golf courses in a different way which is great. The R&A is getting Clubs and greenkeepers to do the same, which is also great. For a GCA in the UK it can't harm to have an a R&A funded program backing up his/her point of view.

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