Trees between some parallel holes unnecessary!!!

[mike_malone]

 I noticed something else from yesterday's aerial study.

   Trees that were planted in the 30's after construction between parallel holes WERE NOT USUALLY PLANTED WHERE THE TEES WERE ELEVATED ON EACH HOLE.


  I think this very significant.When  I saw Torresdale-Frankford aerial and original drawings i saw the same thing as at Rolling Green.Trees planted were either right next to tees to protect parallel holes or planted where parallel landing areas were blind .

  So ,this can be a way to open up some of these classics.I actually believe it is safer to be able to see those in the landing area from a parellel tee or those in the landing area to see the parallel tees.Now players walk without regard and get hit from a ball they cannot see.

    Whenever we can open up courses to air,sun,and views we should do it.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mayday, Many of MacKenzie's, Max Behr's, even Billy Bell's golf holes featured shared parallel fairways. I tend to think of it as an inspiration derived from 5 &14 and many others on the Old Course.

Many of these MacKenzie Behr and Bell courses are now obliterated with trees everwhere on and in between.

[mike_malone]

 A new course near Wilmington Delaware--Fieldstone ---has a wonderful fairway shared by parallel holes.There is a remnant of a stone barn between the 2 holes.

   My point is that the original design or early adjustments seem so much more informed by gca than changes made in the 60's-70's.

   The tendency to separate EVERY hole by trees is BORING.and contrary to how approaches were designed.

[allysmith]

Mayday

I suspect that the 'growth' of trees between fairways is a factor of the growth of the game and the need for anonyimity rather than an effort to improve design.

I remember growing up playing Elgin GC with next to no interfairway trees. As the game grew in popularity people wanted to feel the solitude they had had years before. In order to facilitate this fast growing pines were planted and the character was lost.

Now they have grown and been thinned out the effect is stunning and an element of connectivity has been re-established

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I couldn't agree more. But this is sort of anti-Fazio isn't it? You know, each and every hole unto itself?

[Tyler Kearns]

Mayday,

    Looking at the old aerial of Pasatiempo in the clubhouse, it is sad to see how much unneccsary tree planting can lessen the strategy Mackenzie originally employed in his design. Holes 6-7-8 & 10-17 are great examples of where clearing trees would do wonders for the golf course. Planting trees in small clusters in designated areas would solve the original safety issues that necessitated such plantings. This gives a much more natural appearance than a wall of trees planted 30 feet on centre, while re-instating the original strategy of the holes.

Tyler Kearns

[mike_malone]

 Ally
   There are many reasons i hear for why clubs planted trees between holes..My main point is that they did not often  do it to improve design and i think  they did not realize how they ruined the design.

  As we have become more enlightened about the original design intent,we have searched for evidence to convince the average member why trees need to be cut back.
   
   I think this recognition that the early tenders of the course may have had the value TO PLANT AS FEW TREES AS NECESSARY and to preserve the original lines of recovery.

[mike_malone]

 TKearns
    Could you check on the elevation changes and how they may have affected views from tees and fairways that were parallel.?

   Do you have access to the original design to see whether there were plans for trees?


  I am not opposed to all tree plantings,just unnecessary ones.

    Many of these older courses planned to plant trees,just not when the course opened.


     Those of us who want to rid courses of trees need to be careful not to just look at these earliest photos

[allysmith]

Mayday
I agree entirely.

Planting of trees between fairways selectivley can enhance design by becoming 'hazards' without taking away from the Architects play strategy (see post). I doubt however if any Club Committee can do it. It requires the skills of a qualified course designer.

Trees also allow depth perception and can in that way further denegrade the old skill of 'eyeing' a shot

[Dunlop_White]

Mayday, thanks for bringing this topic to the front. Though I may be wrong, I have always believed that some classical architects used shared-fairways on parallel holes as an ode to The Old Course. Over the years, there has been a tendency to separate these merging fairways with trees for safety reasons, which has had a resounding effect on design intent, strategy, agronomics and aesthetics. The following series of images will be used to help recapture the original look and playability of these two adjacent Donald Ross holes. Any comments at all would be appreciated?

Circa 1936: Notice the central bunker(lower left) and the merging fairways on two parallel holes.


2003: Notice the awful single-file row of white pines which separate both holes.


2004: Adobe Photoshop: presentation of how it would look without the trees.


2003 (opposite angle)


2004: Adobe Photoshop: presentation of how it would look without the trees.


2003 (view looking south from the 15th tee)


2004: Adobe Photoshop: presentation of how it would look without the trees.

[mike_malone]

 Kennett Square,outside of philly, removed trees between their #8 and#17 holes.At the green these holes share a bunker.I like the open look.It contrasts with so much of the rest of the course that is tree-lined.

   Dunlop
     I appreciate your work on trees here.I just thought i had come up with another reason here..The elevation of teeing areas lessens the safety issue,so the plantings are not needed.Your photo work is compelling.

  Could you go to My Home Course section ---look up Rolling Green--go the #7 and #12 holes and wipe out those trees?

[Dunlop_White]

Mayday, you are absolutely right! Open, unobstructed site- lines between parallel holes creates a "visual awareness" between groups, especially from elevated grounds where the vistas are better.  There is a false sense of security associated with trees which buffer these sight-lines.

[ian]

Peterborough G&CC (Thompson) had a huge safety problem with the 17th (a par 5) doglegging around the 200 yard 6th. Long players wanted to carry close to the tees to make the par 5 very reachable. The 16th was a dramatic hole, and the 17th had no room to move. The answer was to remove all trees between both holes. Players now could see each other clearly, and the 16th always waits and watched the 17th tee. The result was nobody has been hit since.

Sometimes trees make matters much worse, you can't forwarn players you can not see.

Love the before and afters.

[David_Tepper]

TKearns & Mayday-

I could be mistaken, but I believe holes 1 & 9 at Pasatiempo were originally designed by MacKenzie to have no trees separating the two fairways, ala holes 1 & 18 at the Old Course. There are others on this site who would know better than I about that.

It would be interesting to know when the trees between those two fairways were planted and if MacKenzie was around to comment on that.

DT

[mike_malone]

 David Tepper
   That is the kind of info i am looking for.


   Ian
    That is a great example. Thank you.

[Tyler Kearns]

David,

   The trees between holes No.1 & No.9 at Pasatiempo were definitely not there when the course opened, I remember seeing a picture of Mackenzie (i believe?) playing the course shortly after opening. Although the 9th fairway would not be a desirable place for the opening tee shot, due to the greenside bunkering and green contour, it would be a more pleasant opening drive and not like the bowling alley it is today.
    As far as if trees were to be planted on the course, I really could not tell you. Tom Huckaby seems to have a much more in-depth knowledge of the course than most on this site, hopefully he'll chime in on this topic.

Tyler Kearns

[Dunlop_White]

Mayday, I cannot wipe out those trees at Rolling Green. A row of trees does not separate the Holes at 7 and 12. It appears as if a forest does, and I therefore cannot see what is on the other side. Sorry!

[Andy_Lipschultz]

I never realized how much I dislike trees seperating holes until playing Rustic Canyon. My favorite part of the course is approaching the 5th green where one can watch the action on the 2nd green, or the approach shots to the 2nd. As you come on to the 5th green, you can watch the tee shots from the par 3 6th as well as the tee shots from the 7th.

It's a great communal area and despite the potential hazards (tee balls from #2 to #6 tee box; golfers walking up #5 ducking wayward approaches to #2), I've never heard of any incidents.

It reminds me of why I'm so attracted to the changes to Santa Monica (the 3rd St. Promenade) and old town Pasadena
which has brought people together and out of their cars, again, in a communal way.

Of course, for those of you who like their solitude and/or are just generally misanthropic--all this must be appalling.

[THuckaby2]

David,

   The trees between holes No.1 & No.9 at Pasatiempo were definitely not there when the course opened, I remember seeing a picture of Mackenzie (i believe?) playing the course shortly after opening. Although the 9th fairway would not be a desirable place for the opening tee shot, due to the greenside bunkering and green contour, it would be a more pleasant opening drive and not like the bowling alley it is today.
    As far as if trees were to be planted on the course, I really could not tell you. Tom Huckaby seems to have a much more in-depth knowledge of the course than most on this site, hopefully he'll chime in on this topic.

Tyler Kearns

TK - appreciate the thought, but I just tend to play there a lot and have for many years, and like to talk about the course, that's all!  When it comes to the course's history, I just refer, and defer, to the great writing and research work done by guys like Geoff Shackelford and Todd Eckenrode.

And Geoff has published pics of what the course was like at the opening... they are all over the clubhouse there too... and there were definitely only very tiny little bushes between 1 and 9 way back then.  It was sorta like a hilly version of 1 and 18 at TOC.

I don't know when the trees were planted but given how the the Good Doctor's nature was described, and the fact that he lived there, I'd have to guess it would have been after his passing!

TH