What would you recommend to do?

[Mark_Fine]

I was having a interesting offline discussion and thought I would share part of it with this group.  We had a situation come up on a restoration project where two of the holes had bunkers that were just blah and very two dimensional.  These bunkers varied dramatically from all the others on the golf course which were dramatic in shape, depth and contour.  We were debating what to do with these bunkers because they supposedly were never touched.  Old aerials and photos seemed to confirm this.  I took Rick Wolffe and Bob Trebus out to see the bunkers (it is an old Tillie design) and asked their opinions.  They believed that in all likelihood, the club ran out of money and the construction crew just did their best to throw in a few bunkers that resembled the plans and then were out of there.  This lack of funds suggestion could not be confirmed and was purely speculation.  

Our Master Plan calls for improvements to the course to be made as best we can to Tillie's plans (which we have) and from old photos/aerials/what we find on the ground?  What would you recommend to do in a situation like this?

[Jon Wiggett]

Mark,

I think you need to ask the question, how likely is it that would Tillie design these bunkers to look different to the rest on the course and so out of place? If the answer is a maybe then there maybe an argument for keeping them so. If on the other hand it is a not likely call then you need to convince the client that a change would be best in keeping with the original design.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Punt.

Actually, if indeed it was somewhat ugly, doesn't make any sense bunkering that doesn't fit the course nor the designer--it's probably exactly as Bob and Rick have diagnosed.

This is where you get to prove your worth as a designer Mark! Who cares what any of us think, go with what you know is going to be best.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Mark-

  You've said old aerials confirm the two bunkers were rather nondescript, even close in time to the course's completion?  

Wow.  

  This is a tough call.  On one hand, I like what I have learned on here from the older guys in terms of handling a restoration, that is establishing a baseline or time period and then restoring to that point in time, without deviation.  

  On the other hand, one has to wonder if redesigning the bunkers to be more consistent in appearance and playability with the others on the course is an act that has merit.  This requires a lot of thought.  Firstly, are there any maintenance issues with the two odd bunkers as they are today?  

  Here's where I am going with this; on one hand, I like and appreciate the logic behind restoring to a fixed time period.  This way, there is no deviation--it's black and white, cut and dry.  On the other hand, I do like the bunkers and holes at a given course to have an architectural consistency the whole way 'round.  
(I have a specific example to cite, but will not at this time.  It is local and am waiting to speak to some related parties personally).  
Now, as far as establishing that consistency, I feel it is important to stay in-line with what Tillinghast may have done there, as long as other features are not obliterated (see Rees Jones doing a Tillinghast interpretation and the green surrounds of Bethpage Black).  

As I write this, I still go back to the "point in time" view, because when one opens the door for a bit of interpretation, even when it is done by those knowing of the relevant style, it still sets a precedent, and that is what I am afraid of, that others in the future can use this precedent and pervert it.  

Are there any drawn plans?  I believe that is what Aronimink did, no?  Go back to the plans and restore to that?  

[Mark_Fine]

Jon,
Here are two photos.  






Good question Jon.  Tough to know for sure what the answer is?  We did extensive research, even found a really cool leather bound copy of the first membership booklet which had photos, course layout, etc. in it.  Also found articles and comments from Tilly about the course but no mention about this.   I will share our recommendation later.  I'm just curious what position people here would take.  

[Mark_Fine]

Tommy and Doug,
I saw your posts after I responded to Jon.  Any more thoughts after seeing these two photos?  
Mark

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mark,
If that one bunker is the finished product, the one with the clean shaped mound of a peninsula and grass face at it's front, then it looks nothing like a Tillie bunker IMHO.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Don't get me wrong, it's better then the other photo, but it isn't really tillie like.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mark,
is that a rather large abandoned Tillie bunker up near the green?

[Mark_Fine]

Here is one more photo of another fairway bunker which is typical of most.  



You can see that a lot of work went into the shaping and sculpting of them (unlike in the second photo above).  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

It almost looks like it has a Dye/Rees Jones morph to it. (the last image)

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Mark-

  These are quite odd.  Yes, they look nothing like Tillie bunkers, well, maybe some at Bethpage where they're just neglected   but seriously, they look far afield from what I have seen of Tillinghast.  

  As do the trees inside the bunker lines to the green, but you're probably got that covered.  

After seeing these photos, now I move the other way, towards redesigning them to be more consistent with what Tillinghast did on the rest of the course, but I am still fearful of establishing a precedent.  

I can't help it, I'm conservative

Mark, does your team have any plans of the course you could refer to?  In instance such as this I feel safest turning to the plans to see what the architect intended.  What do you think?  

This is going to be a good, good thread!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

The one thing about Tillie, and especially Bell is that the bunkers have an open face, or entrance to them, thus allowing more of a visual presence from the spot which they are being presented.

[Mark_Fine]

Tommy,
No work has been done yet by us on any of these bunkers.  You can see how sand has receded (it has on most of the bunkers).  

When Rick and Bob came around, they thought the bunkers looked just like they came out of Tillies sketches.  The course has great potential.  Philip knows about it and I believe feels the same way.  

Mark

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I don't have the time right now because I'm leaving, and I agree with doug that it's going to be a good thread. The newer, more shaped or sculpted bunkers do look odd.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mark, Call me.

[Mark_Fine]

Here is an example of a bunker that was just grass over (basically abandoned).  A lot of work and expense went into building a bunker like this back in the 20's.  You might not be able to tell from the photo, but this bunker is huge.  

[Mark_Fine]

Tommy,
These bunkers I am showing you were not newer or reworked.  They are vintage Tillie!  That is what is so cool about this project.

[Mark_Fine]

Check out Tillie's reverse Redan.  This is an awesome golf hole.  Just wait till the green is expanded to the edges of the fill pad and the bunkers are restored.  The original design is in tact.  It just needs some touching up.  

[Mark_Fine]

Guys,
Think about some of the bunkers at Tillie courses like Fenway and Somerset Hills.  Now do you still think these don't look like Tillie bunkers?  I'd post some photos I but don't want to confuse this thread.  On the other hand if you want me to I will.  

[cary lichtenstein]

Here is what I would do.

I would ask myself where was Tilly in his career when he did these? Did his stlye evolve and his bunkers get better after this course was done?

If Tilly were brought back and given his head to redo the bunkers in whatever style he wanted, what would he do?

Remember, his work here may have been influenced by some member and Tilly may not have been all that enthusized about this style.

Give the client the best bunkers Tilly ever did, style wise, consistent with this type of course and topography.

[Jon Wiggett]

Please do Mark. I have never had the experience of playing a Tillie course so I can't comment on the point of typical or not typical Tillie but would love to see some examples.

Something else that has occurred to me is if his style developed and evolved during his career then there would be a typical bunker style early, middle and late career. This in turn would make it be important to compare the style of his bunkering on courses constructed immediately before and after this one was built. Is this something that you would take into consideration or did Tillie have the same style throughout his career and save you the headache?

This is much more complicated than I thought! Think I go back to the beer and football.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Make the course better!  Sorry to be so flip, but I mean it.  Turning a bland, out of place bunker into a better one makes the bunker and the course better.  Don't worry what "Tillie would have done," or what "Tillie would do now."  You'll never know.  To coin a phrase, "Just Do It."

[Mark_Fine]

Thanks for the ideas.  Here are a few more photos.  What do you guys think about these?

[Jon Wiggett]

  Make the course better!  Sorry to be so flip, but I mean it.  Turning a bland, out of place bunker into a better one makes the bunker and the course better.  Don't worry what "Tillie would have done," or what "Tillie would do now."  You'll never know.  To coin a phrase, "Just Do It."

Jim,

if Mark is required by the client to restore the course to the original Tillie plan then he is required to think about what Tillie would have wanted and done. However in if it is not possible to assess this then all that can be asked is that Mark uses his best judgement in the matter.