[Wayne Freeman]

Played Pine Canyon in Flagstaff, AZ today.  Beautiful facility, and very upscale residential development.  Thought the course was very good, but had a hard time dealing with several  of the holes that had trees right in the middle of the fairway.  The second hole has an old, burned out tree guarding the right side of the fairway about 230 off the back tee on a long par 4 and it is just great. The 14th, downhill, about 380 had a tree right in front of the green at about 300, AND a big bunker dead center of the fairway at 260-280. And there were at least 2 others with sentinel or double trees dead center.
 I can deal with 1 or maybe 2 holes that have middle of the fairway trees, but this was just too much.
    Interested in your thoughts or comments.

[Jordan Wall]

...Was this an Art Hills course?

[PThomas]

Played Pine Canyon in Flagstaff, AZ today.  Beautiful facility, and very upscale residential development.  Thought the course was very good, but had a hard time dealing with several  of the holes that had trees right in the middle of the fairway.  The second hole has an old, burned out tree guarding the right side of the fairway about 230 off the back tee on a long par 4 and it is just great. The 14th, downhill, about 380 had a tree right in front of the green at about 300, AND a big bunker dead center of the fairway at 260-280. And there were at least 2 others with sentinel or double trees dead center.
 I can deal with 1 or maybe 2 holes that have middle of the fairway trees, but this was just too much.
    Interested in your thoughts or comments.

I agree, 1 and MAYBE 2 holes, but anymore is overkill

[Wayne Freeman]

It's a Jay Morrish,  and that's maybe what surprised me the most.

[Dan Moore]

As you will see in a couple of weeks, the ninth hole at the K Club there is a huge tree is located right in the middle of the line of play.  

[mike_beene]

Ralph Plummer courses,at least the ones I know,have a large tree in the middle of a fairway on one hole.

[Doug Ralston]

There is a nice little course in Cincinnati, designed by an unknown for his own purposes. It is called 'Stonelick Hills'. Glenn Spencer will hate what I tell you now about it.

One of my favorite holes on the course is #2. It has a tree just within, or just outside [depending] of driving range, in the right center of the fairway. It was quite small when the course was born. In the 2 years or so since it has grown. I consider this nice forsight. It gives you options.

The green is actually set a 3ft drop below the fairway just preceding it. It is begging for a run up. The tree makes that the best idea when if partially cuts your flightpath. The fairway sways from the rightside to left slightly, meaning you have ideal low runs from behind right, while left of the tree you can play high if you wish. Pretty hole IMHO. Sorry Glenn.

BTW, just an aside. Course was #7 'Best New Affordable' in GD and I think deservingly so. Glenn, who has clearly played it more, will again not agree. Different tastes make up golf!

Doug

[Bill_Ryzewski]

I recall a nifty little par 4 by Bell and Thomas with a tree dead center.

[Adam Clayman]

Pine Canyon's use of center trees is not overly burdensome. I seemed to recall They are placed in areas where, if under or near, causes the golfer to consider alternative options. Wasn't it the thirteenth hole? The 380 downhill? If so, Brad Klein drove that green with a juicy 100 yard kick off a well placed knob left side of the fairway.

How about that 505 Par 4? Was it the fourth hole? Has a reparian that runs down the leftside to start, then cuts through and over to the otherside of the fairway, before serpentining towards green front and side?

[Wayne Freeman]

Adam-  it's the 14th hole you are referring to-  and that one also has a big ol' bunker right in the center. If Brad did drive that green it was either rock hard conditions, or he was playing way up tees.  
    The 4th hole is a brute dogleg left with tons or trees left blocking out the green-  newsflash --  they're going to put in a back tee and make it a par 5 -  a much better hole that way.
        I'm not disputing that there are a bunch of great holes around the country with trees in the middle-  like I said before, I think it's ok once or maybe twice-  but more than that I think disrupts the overall flow and interest.

[Mark Pearce]

I used to belong to Chorleywood Golf Club in Hertfordshire.  Chorleywood is interesting in many ways.  It started out as 18 holes but is now a par 34 9 hole track.  In the 1890s it was frequented by members of the House of Lords and the Metropolitan Line (that's a tube line out of London) stop at Chorleywood was built to allow their Lordships to travel to the club.  The station is only a couple of hundred yards from the course (similarly Moor Park station a couple of stops down the line is very close indeed to Sandy Lodge GC).  Chorleywood originally threaded its way through gorse, though since the war it has become heavily wooded and trees now have replaced that gorse.

Like nearby Berkhampstead it has no sand bunkers but its tiny greens are protected by grass bunkers and swales.  It has one par 5 (a short one at 480 yards) and three par threes.  It is short but tight, a real iron players course.

Anyway, enough reminiscences (I haven't played there for nine years, since we moved North).  The purpose of this post is that Chorleywood has two par 4s (that's 40% of its par 4s) with trees in the fairway.  The second (around 420 yds frrom memory) has a row of trees crossing the fairway short of 300 yds from the tee.  The choice is to play short and hit a short iron over them at the green or drive towards them, hoping to find a gap to run through or play your approach through.

The ninth (a short par four)  has a single tree in the middle of the fairway.  Again, lay up and play a full iron second or try to drive around (or if very long, over) the tree, to leave a short pitch to the green.

Quirky but a course I used to love playing and one I'd love to get back to.

[Tony_Muldoon]

There is a large Oak bang in the middle of the fairway on what will play as one of the finishing holes at the K club.  It's on the turn of the dogleg and they grow 4" grass underneath it.

A certain Scottish player, who in the past was renowned for his bad temper, hates the hole and has publicly railed against the idiocy of rough in the middle of the fairway.  He is consequently widely disliked at the club and it looks like we've shot ourselves in the foot on that one!

[Tom Roewer]

Jordan, you have been infected.

[A.G._Crockett]

My home course, Alpharetta CC in Georgia (Willard Byrd) has two holes with sentinel trees.  

Both are huge pines with no branches below about 20' up; one is about 200 yds. out on a very good par 4, the other is about 30 yds. in front of the green on a very bad par 5.

I will say that the par 5 pine has made all of us learn a lot of shots that would probably wouldn't have otherwise.  All kinds of knockdowns, cuts, and yardages.  I especially like the 130 yd. 4 iron!

[Brad Klein]

Adam, you are right, but let's clarify the record: it was the dogleg right 13th hole at Pine Canyon I drove, from the 360-yard tees, aided (by design) by a bold shot down the right on the inside of the dogleg and a favorable kick, but please, give me a little more credit than that, as it didn't kick 100 yards. By the way, the next time there I drove the straightaway 9th from 328 yards. (Three-putted both times, thank you.)

Wayne has obviously never seen me play golf, though I grant him that my drives there benefitted from the elevation, 6,000 feet above sea level.

By the way, Pine Canyon has a central fairway tree on four par-4s (2,6,9,14) and two par-5s (12, 16), but there's a lot of room around and under the canopy in each case to manage the shots. Hey, what can you say up there in Ponderosa pine country? That's the "theme" of the course.

[Adam Clayman]

Brad, Re the 100 yard kick, I had to make up something. I didnt know Wayne had never seen you play. I just thought all you television personalities hungout.

I thought the 14th was at least flat if not uphill, but the questions still remains, Why didn't Jay call Wayne before he put in those extraneous center trees?

[Paul Payne]

Jordan,

FYI, they just finished playing part of the US amateur here at Chaska, just down the road from Hazeltime. Yep..... Art Hills, tree in fairway #3.

I do have a favorite tree however. #4 at Keller, a great old course in St Paul which has hosted the PGA and was a tour stop for the St Paul open. It is amazing the great golfers in the past who have played this course.

Anyway, #4 is a par three about 160 yards long. There is a HUGE oak tree dead center between you and the green. You cannot go around it. When you first see this it seems like an impossible joke, but if you just ignore the tree and hit the shot, your ball will clear the tree with plenty of room to spare. For those who really are afraid of heights, you can hit a strong knockdown and run it up on the green but it cannot be a sloppy shot. It really is a very fun hole.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Regarding Bell & Thomas, they used trees in play quite often. The 8th at Riviera is an example. Same with the Ojai, LACC, Bel Air and others.

[T_MacWood]

I think there is hole or two at Stanford that had a tree in the middle of the fairway.

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan, you have been infected.

Well I guess.

The only Arthur Hills course I have played would be one I like very much.
The course has three holes with trees in the middle of the fairway.
Not necassirily a bad thing, but something I hear (and know for a fact at Harbour Point) he does a lot.

And, as of now, I have no reason to dislike Hills or his course(s).

[Pete Lavallee]

I think it's ok once or maybe twice-  but more than that I think disrupts the overall flow and interest.

Wayne,
It sounds like it dissrupts the accumulation of 3's and 4's more than the flow or interest. It certainly has to make the hole more interesting as you weigh your options of how to skirt the tree high, low or to the sides. Care to explain how they interupt the flow?

[ChipOat]

I was just going to lurk but, MAN! is this a pet peeve of mine.

NO TREES IN FAIRWAYS!!!!

VERY BAD!!!!

Come in, Redanman, please!!!

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I can think of many annoying examples, but the 15th at Mere (Braid/Duncan) is a cracker.

[John Kirk]

9th hole at Plumas Lake Country Club near Marysville, CA.  At least three oaks randomly placed in the fairway of the short par 4.

[Wayne Freeman]

Pete-  maybe it's just that when you have to think about trees all the time in the middle of everything, it plays with your thinking process alot, and just seems a little annoying to me.  It's hard enough to try to get the tee shot into the fairway and try to get into position for hitting the green-  maybe it's just too much going on for me some times!

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