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TEPaul

Re:The Decline of Club Culture
« Reply #50 on: September 04, 2006, 09:22:23 PM »
Tom:

Thanks for the English garden lesson but I know all that and have for years. There're two of them within three hundred yards of me. :) I've also been to Greywalls, Sissinghurst, Great Dixter and a good many more of their kind in GB. And thanks for the book recommendation. I'm sure it's an interesting read no matter where one reads it.  

"The natural or the wild was the way they utilized the plants within the garden (in opposition to the Victorian carpet bedding) and the way they melded the garden with the outside world. The garden extended the house into the midst of Nature."

By the way, Gertrude Jekyll's garden and design at Greywalls doesn't meld with the outside world at all. It's completely enclosed from the outside world by a rather high wall. However, at the very end of the garden and in the middle of the wall lined up perfectly with the central walk from the house is an opening in the wall in the form and shape of a human eye. ;)

But anyway.

« Last Edit: September 04, 2006, 09:43:30 PM by TEPaul »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Decline of Club Culture
« Reply #51 on: September 04, 2006, 09:45:55 PM »
The thoughts above about the aging of golf memberships is very pertinent to the whole issue of club cultures and the future of private club membership.

When Hurricane Ivan destroyed the aged clubhouse of Pensacola Country Club, we hired an expert in clubhouse design and he suggested a series of focus groups to see what the membership really wanted when the new clubhouse was built.

The first report had a significant and very important factoid: the average age of our members was 71 years old!  :o

In addition, quite a significant number of these are retired naval officers.  They are a good bunch but all on fixed incomes.  As a result, the club has had had a culture of cheap for years.  Cheap initiation, cheap dues, deteriorating infrastructure, lousy maintenance.

Our only hope to improve things - and maintain our new Jerry Pate designed course, which looks really good with a par 3 18th hole hanging over the bay behind the clubhouse - is to attract a younger membership.  To that end our membership drive, as we near opening date for the new course, is focusing on younger members with junior executive options.  Hoping to attract that crowd at full dues, we are also including a fitness center and a pool at the enlarged tennis center.

All of this is of course making me very nervous..... :-\   It's a real tightrope act.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Decline of Club Culture
« Reply #52 on: September 04, 2006, 10:03:13 PM »
In my opinion, it all started when... Oops, never mind.



Sorry.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

T_MacWood

Re:The Decline of Club Culture
« Reply #53 on: September 04, 2006, 11:20:41 PM »

By the way, Gertrude Jekyll's garden and design at Greywalls doesn't meld with the outside world at all. It's completely enclosed from the outside world by a rather high wall. However, at the very end of the garden and in the middle of the wall lined up perfectly with the central walk from the house is an opening in the wall in the form and shape of a human eye. ;)

But anyway.


Sissinghurst and Great Dixter are enclosed as well, but of course you already knew that.  ::)

Mike_Cirba

Re:The Decline of Club Culture
« Reply #54 on: September 05, 2006, 01:58:44 AM »
If this very interesting, learned discussion devolves into yet another argument about the role of the A&C movement in golf course architecture, I'm going to be extremely disappointed.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2006, 01:59:08 AM by Mike Cirba »

ForkaB

Re:The Decline of Club Culture
« Reply #55 on: September 05, 2006, 02:57:30 AM »
Mike

How dare you try to hijack a thread about Sissinghurst! >:(

Bill

Good insights on your experience with Pensacola.  Good luck!

Brian and Sean

Thanks for the thoughts.  We have our AGM at Aberdour in a couple of weeks and will be talking aout a serious (~£750k) renovation of the clubhouse.  In the run-up I have argued for helping finance the project by opening up the club to non-members (or greatly expanding social membership).  I hate to say it, but what is really needed is more of a "country club" model.  Within that model, keep part of the facilities exclusive to golfers (Grill Room model).

Based on your thoughts I'm going to add the idea of increasing the bar minimum to £50-100 (we put through a £20 annual voucher scheme a few years ago and, contrary to most predictions,the sky didn't fall...).  I'm not going to talk about spas (a bridge too far...), but will keep it in mind.

Tony

You are right and you are wrong.  Yes, UK golf is cheap, but the answer is NOT to raise prices and try to survive on high margins and lower volume.  That is a slippery slope to disaster, UNLESS, your "product" is demonstrably superior.  Very few golf courses do or can attain this sort of nirvana.

The drink/driving "problem" is a real one.  My idea is to have a scheduled minibus to shuttle slightly tipsy members from their club to their homes or the homes of their lovers.....

Now lets get back to the discussion of the Victorian gardens of Jekyll and Hyde......... :'(

ForkaB

Re:The Decline of Club Culture
« Reply #56 on: September 05, 2006, 04:05:31 AM »
Thanks, Sean

1.  The clubhouse is and will probably remain spikeless.  We do have a dirty bar (i.e. where you can talk dirty without giving the blue rinse brigade hot flushes) and it will remain
2.  No smoking allowed in any public places in Scotland these days--it's California without the macrobiotic diets up here now...
3.  This is what is and what will remain so
4.  We poshed up the locker room 10 years ago and it was the worst expenditure we ever made.  Unless you have a club full of poseurs, don't do it.  Real men change their shoes in the parking lot!

Rich

PS--a fair amount of market research has been done, but since there is a high proportion of numpties in the club, lotta good that's going to do......... ;)

R

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Decline of Club Culture
« Reply #57 on: September 05, 2006, 05:03:01 AM »
Rich – part right? I’m obviously improving. You’re the business strategist; it would be very interesting to know how you see the industry evolving?

These are the key factors I would identify.

-   Older more conservative membership for existing clubs. 60+
-   Plenty of new competition/courses entering the market. People at Pay and Plays are a diverse bunch.  I spent 4 out of the last 5 years mixing in with them.  The average guy only play’s once a month, has all that ‘expensive’ gear, figures it’s a day out and a 5 hour round so what’s the problem?  They average 30 something in years.  Other weekends they do something else with their disposable cash.  When my friends and I did the sums we played enough to make it a no brainier to join a club and pick carefully our extra days. The average guy who does pay and play probably spends as least  as much as local club members but get less golf per annum.
-   The two groups are now completely overlapping. Clubs have sought society cash and made themselves more accessible. Many have no waiting list or large deposit fee so why committ to one club, even if you only do a year you can always drop out again? The club golfer (as per Brian) takes advantage of how much easier it is to get on other courses, a few of which are upmarket Pay and Plays or CCFAD.  Clubs have invited casual play in and it’s a two edged sword.

All these and the social factors mentioned above are death nails to the old Club Culture. I’ve seen the future and it ain’t pretty…  (The implications for courses, standard of golf and pace of play are all grim).

(The other side of this is the really desirable ‘Clubs’ will shrink in number and become even harder to get into.  At my age it’s time I got my name on a couple of waiting list so I can hang out at a good ‘Club’ when I’m retired.)

Odd, I normally consider myself an optimist but I can’t see the upside of all these changes. :'(
« Last Edit: September 05, 2006, 05:07:33 AM by Tony Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

ForkaB

Re:The Decline of Club Culture
« Reply #58 on: September 05, 2006, 05:36:28 AM »
Sean

Nothing's particularly ailing (except maybe the fabric of the building), it's more a let's make our mark on history kind of thing.  As for changing in public, we only do shoes, but if at Droitwich it involves clothes, then please fast-track my pending application for membership.

Tony

Very good points (you're 100% right this time!).

All in all, it is hard to create a scenario where "club culture" does anything but "decline."

Rich

TEPaul

Re:The Decline of Club Culture
« Reply #59 on: September 05, 2006, 06:15:47 AM »
"The natural or the wild was the way they utilized the plants within the garden (in opposition to the Victorian carpet bedding) and the way they melded the garden with the outside world. The garden extended the house into the midst of Nature."

“Sissinghurst and Great Dixter are enclosed as well, but of course you already knew that."  


Tom MacWood;

So what, all the better to seamlessly meld the house and garden through enclosed walls and straight into the outside world and into the midst of Nature, right? ;)

The star of Capablilty Brown’s landscape gardening style did rise in the 18th century and then fell into the 19th century as greater “naturalism” in landscape gardening took hold. But it’s ironic to your point that some of the purists of the highly formal English gardens that preceded Brown blame him for destroying those highly formal English gardens to make way for his form of naturalism---eg the massive English “park” (parkland estate) that were most of his commissions. A style of landscape design, by the way, that did evolve from the painting art often known as "the Beautiful" (in the sense of its interpretations of Nature) that emanated from the likes of artist Claude Lorrain et al.

But then Brown’s star rose again into the 20th century which is important for us on here to know, as it is the century, by the way, where most of the best man-made golf architecture was designed and built and hit its peak, in both England and America, particularly inland and particularly with what has become known as the “parkland” style of golf architecture. It’s instructive for us to know that some of Brown’s “park” designs and projects are used as golf courses. Are any of Gertrude Jekyll’s projects used as golf courses?

Repton was critical of Brown occasionally but he also defended him and his work. You seem to want to make it look like he may’ve hated everything he did. One should never advance one-sided historical revisionism to make some point. A more balanced and more accurate presentation of history is necessary to understand it best.  :)

But, again, let’s not forget, we are a golf architecture website here. Brown’s landscape architecture designs have influenced golf course architecture tremendously, particularly it’s “parkland” style that is of no small significance or consequence in the context of golf course architecture generally. Both England and America are replete with "parkland" style courses and have been for the last century.

You should try a bit harder to understand this and admit to it instead of constantly trying to defend your fairly unsupportable point that the "Arts and Crafts" Movement and perhaps the landscape gardeners who endorsed it are some primary influence on golf course architecture of the 20th century including the Golden Age.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2006, 06:30:16 AM by TEPaul »

ForkaB

Re:The Decline of Club Culture
« Reply #60 on: September 05, 2006, 06:28:51 AM »
Tom, Tom and Brad

What was Repton's take on spas vs. new locker rooms vs. the status quo Auntie?  Did he dare to change his shoes on the street......?

Thanking you in advance.

rich

TEPaul

Re:The Decline of Club Culture
« Reply #61 on: September 05, 2006, 06:31:49 AM »
Rich:

Why don't you go  into the lockerooms and deal with the subject of the changing of one's shoes? Can't you see we are in the gardens and on the golf courses?  ;)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2006, 06:34:11 AM by TEPaul »

ForkaB

Re:The Decline of Club Culture
« Reply #62 on: September 05, 2006, 06:37:42 AM »
Tom

Is the same old geezer still running the locker room at Gulph Mills?  If so, he must be even older than you these days.

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Decline of Club Culture
« Reply #63 on: September 05, 2006, 09:34:21 AM »
Who's the gardener at Gulph Mills?  Chancy?


(Hint ....Being There)


James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Mike_Sweeney

Re:The Decline of Club Culture
« Reply #64 on: September 05, 2006, 10:11:40 AM »
In New York, a number of private eating/social/athletic/city clubs now have deals where members can go play a number of "B" private golf clubs (the Friars Club does NOT have a reciprocal with Friars Head for example  ;) ). In some cases you pay directly, and in others you charge it to directly to your account at the reciprocal club. Typically you are allowed during the week, but in some it is weekend afternoons too.

Is anything like that happening in London?

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Decline of Club Culture
« Reply #65 on: September 05, 2006, 10:15:13 AM »
It seems that the issues discussed here by Mike Sweeney, Tony Muldoon, Rich, Brian Ewen (I think) and others could just as easily apply down under.  Difficulty in getting 25-50 year old members, access at newer better quality courses, the problems of debt associated with new clubhouse facilities.  It seems to be global.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Decline of Club Culture
« Reply #66 on: September 05, 2006, 10:16:45 AM »
A couple of suggestions for the aging clubhouses who have aging members.

ADA toilets and showers. Wider doors for those wheelchairs, and a depends dispensor.

Cater to us old guys and you shall reap the rewards.

On that vien, perhaps devoting some of the un-used space to a ortho/cardio/emerg care unit would be insightful. This should reduce the time it takes to get medical help, while generating enough cash flow to even pay the docs. A pharmacy wouldn't be a bad idea either.

 ;D
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Decline of Club Culture
« Reply #67 on: September 05, 2006, 10:45:17 AM »
Mike I don’t think the type of clubs you describe are strong in London but I guess it would come under the catch all ‘Society Day’  Many old clubs these have long standing arrangements with old established Societies e.g. Surveyors groups or accountants down to a Pub group.  Rye has only a few a year but many commercially minded clubs set aside every Tuesday or Thursday for the purpose.  I’m a member of www.foretour.com and earlier in the year Sean Arble and I had a day at Swinley with them. Last Month I played Sunnigdale, great day out (if a little slow 9 hours for golf - and judging by the way the Club organised us I don’t think we were a bad group.)

Nearly all access is granted during the week – even if it means great clubs having no one at all on them Sunday afternoons.  However in the last 25 years rising const have meant all courses are more accessible than they were.


For some the Society is a Club who meet half a dozen tiems a year and this arrangemnt remains strong.
Let's make GCA grate again!