[Doug Wright]

Matt,
   I'll be frank.  I've played the hole.  Also, if I played the amount of golf you do I would smoke your ass something fierce.  
   The first time I played the hole there was no indication of where the green sat within all of the nooks and crannies.  I hit what I thought was a good shot from 240 with a 4 iron to be greeted with a 15 foot rock wall betweeen me and the green a mere 20ish yards left.  I had to play backwards some 30+ yards to actually have a shot to the green.  I think after knowing which cranny the green is in makes the hole more tolerable, but the first play is too much of crapshoot for a reachable par 5.

Cheers,
Brad
   

Brad,

It's only blind once laddie...

That's what you get for hitting 240 yard 4 irons... For us mortals it's a strategic 3 shot hole!

[Dan_Callahan]

I haven't played many Engh courses, but I agree with Matt—I like those squiggly bunkers. Something about them seems to fit the mountain setting where Engh is building most of his courses. In many cases, because of the depth and some awkward lies, they are more penal than your average, run-of-the-mill variety.

[Brad Swanson]

Fossil Trace GC #12 discussion from 2 years back, to refresh our friend from Joisey that I'm not some "Joe Sixpack lobbing bromides from the cheap seats".  (Matt, If you've copyrighted that catchphrase, please let me know where to remit the royalty fee).  Pictures are missing but the general gist is there.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=12483;start=0


I can't comment on the Road Hole at TOC, as I reserve judgement for courses I've actually played, and not just seen in pictures.

Cheers,
Brad

[Michael Dugger]

Hey guys,

I came across these fine images of Engh's Sanctuary recently.  I've yet to play any of his courses but Sanctuary appeals to me most visually based on imagery.

check it out!

[Matt_Ward]

Brad:

Nice side-step -- send the royalty to the fund for mandatory caddies that is appearing on another thread.

Dan:

Amen brother. The squiggly bunkers are not anything close to an easy play. The concern I have with Engh, as often happens with other architects, is that they often reproduce the same items time after time. No doubt the future client is interested in them because of a previous design they either saw or played.

However, the idea that said design items are always part and parcel of any future design can get old and needs some rethinking. Engh offers many unique aspects of design -- the squiggly bunkers are one of those features. But like any good joke it should not be retold to the point where the punch line is predictable.

Michael D:

The 2nd picture down is the 1st at Sanctuary. I have to say the extreme back tee (called "Rattlesnake") leaves little room beyond the player hitting -- it makes you appear as the ultimate high diver (aka Greg Louganis) and the hang time on the tee shot is indeed something to behold. It makes the drop shot at the 1st at Castle Pines look flat indeed.

[Doug Wright]

Michael,

FYI the holes you've depicted are the following (in order):

8, 1, 5, 11, 14, 12, 7, 13, 17, 10, 18, 1 again, 6, 2.

I believe Matt has the par 4 #8 in his "Best of Engh" list. This hole is steeply uphill. I like the hole due to the protruding rocky area in the landing zone and the two tiered green with a massive slope to the top tier. Both the tee shot and the second shot hold your interest on this hole.

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

Thanks for the ID on the holes.

Speaking of uphill holes -- I am also partial to the par-4 18th at Sanctuary. You often get zero roll because it's uphill and the fairway is often a tad wetter than the rest.

Less severe but also uphill is Engh's closer at Black Rock.

The 8th at Sanctuary is very good for only 380 yards.

[Doug Wright]

Hey Brad:

You talk a good game on a blog site about your ability
partner -- next time I'm in town how bout you
and I meet and see what transpires.   The loser
can buy the Coors !

Matt,

Don't be bettin' the ranch vs. Brad Swanson pardner. The boy's got some serious game!  

PS I'd be happy to referee THAT cage match...  

[Brad Swanson]

To add something positive to the post, I will reiterite my agreement with Matt that #4 at Fossil Trace is a really solid golf hole.  Its a hole that (from my shaky memory) has really no significant containment features from tee to green, nor do any of the trademark squiggly bunkers stand-out in my mind.  What I do remember is a hole that favors a fade off of the tee to a fairly tight landing area running right to left with some trees to negotiate on the right and a lateral hazard on the left.  The approach is to a well situated three tiered green with a hazard in tight on the back and left which would favor a draw on the approach.  This is a situation where Engh got alot out of a corner of the property that may not have appeared to be a great spot for a golf hole.  I guess I like it because its is a solid hole that rewards the player that can shape their shots and does not "feature" any of the Engh trademark features (at least I don't remeber any from my TWO playings).  And the best part is after you finish 4 you are faced with the all-world par 3 5th....

...speaking of the 5th, Doug, now that you have mastered posting pictures, when are we going to see the synopsis of your home course that we discussed years ago?

Cheers,
Brad

[Matt_Ward]

Brad:

Amen -- we see the all-world par-3 5th hole at Fossil Trace in the same vein.

P.S. I flipped my all-Engh 18 with the 4th at Fossil Trace being bumped out for the 4th at Lakota and the 5th being the short par-4 at Pradera.

The 4th at Fossil Trace would be a clear honorable mention though for the very reasons you alluded to in your last post.

[Doug Wright]

Brad/Matt,

The 4th at Fossil Trace is indeed an excellent hole,
one of Jim Engh's best par 4s IMO. Of course, it is
but a mere prelude to the wee 5th, which has one
of the best-designed greens in all of Colorado
if not elsewhere, as is readily apparent from the photo below...

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

You need to let the 5th hole ............


GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!

It is a mutt of the highest proportion. What's amazing is that Fossil Trace starts with four solid holes then you encounter the 5th.

Well, even Jim's human.

[Doug Wright]

Doug:

You need to let the 5th hole ............


GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!

It is a mutt of the highest proportion.
What's amazing is that Fossil Trace starts
with four solid holes then you encounter the 5th.

Well, even Jim's human.

Matt,

I can only comment on the 5th green not the routing.
You need to play it again sometime--it is one well-designed green...

[astavrides]

Doug:

You need to let the 5th hole ............


GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!

It is a mutt of the highest proportion.
What's amazing is that Fossil Trace starts
with four solid holes then you encounter the 5th.

Well, even Jim's human.

Matt,

I can only comment on the 5th green not the routing.
You need to play it again sometime--it is one well-designed green...

maybe it is a well designed green, but more people would get to experience what it has to offer if it were a 190 yd shot, instead of a 100 yd shot.

[Doug Wright]

maybe it is a well designed green, but more people would get
to experience what it has to offer if it were a 190 yd shot,
instead of a 100 yd shot.

Stavros,

Agreed, but like the wee 7th at Pebble the architect didn't have any room to work with...

[Jim Nugent]

Michael -- cool pictures.  Course looks real nice.  Shame he had to ruin it with those twin (not just one but two!!) waterfalls, in the fourth picture from the bottom.  

[Jay Flemma]

So much for respecting other peoples opinion and hving civil discourse about the differences,

Mutts make the best dogs.

Matt's on the other hand....

(Adam posting on Jay's puter)

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

To even put PB's 7th green in the same sentence with the 5th at Fossil Trace is a big time stretch -- Doug you are really straining here with the linkages.

They are light years apart. Jim Engh could have done something rather unique with the short distance hole -- it is simply filler and one of the worst examples of what kind of talent the man produces on a consistent basis IMHO.

Gents:

The final Engh list for me would be the following:

1st hole -- Snowmass Club (4) 460 yds
HM Sanctuary (5) 604 yds & Fossil Trace (5) 575 yds
2nd hole -- Pradera (4) 432 yds
3rd hole -- Hawktree (3) 164 yds
4th hole -- Lakota Canyon (5) 556 yds
5th hole -- Pradera (4) 356 yds
6th hole -- Black Rock (4) 428 yds
7th hole -- Lakota Canyon Ranch (3) 223 yds
8th hole -- Sanctuary (4) 380 yds
HM Blackstone (4) 456 yds
9th hole -- Blackstone (5) 560 yds

10th hole -- Red Hawk Ridge (4) 440 yds
11th hole -- Pradera (4)  495 yds
12th hole -- Fossil Trace (5)  585 yds
13th hole -- Hawktree (3)  230 yds
14th hole -- Redlands Mesa (4) 390 yds
15th hole -- Black Rock (4)  457 yds
16th hole -- Lakota Canyon Ranch (4)  416 yds
17th hole -- Redlands Mesa (3)  218 yds
HM - Lakota Canyon Ranch (3)  219 yds
18th hole -- Pradera (5)  557 yds
HM - Lakota Canyon Ranch (5)  557 yds.

If I count correctly -- Pradera leads the listing with four (4) selections.

[Doug Wright]

Doug:

To even put PB's 7th green in the same sentence
with the 5th at Fossil Trace is a big time stretch
-- Doug you are really straining here with the linkages.

They are light years apart. Jim Engh could have done
something rather unique with the short distance hole
-- it is simply filler and one of the worst examples of
what kind of talent the man produces on a consistent basis IMHO.

Matt,

You're entitled to your opinion (as conclusory
and unsupported by facts as it is), but you could
be wrong.     What would YOU have done if you
were the architect and had that small piece of ground
to work with? Are there any holes on the planet
under 120 yards that you think are worthy holes?

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

Here are a FEW FACTS you don't have at your disposal. I have personally played no less than eleven (11) Engh designs. I am quite aware of what the man has designed -- including short par-3's that work well -- see the qualities of the 3rd at Hawktree in Bismarck, ND and then compared it to the lame 5th hole at Fossil Trace and you can see where I base my info on and the hole reference I cited is just one example.

My opinions come from actual in-the-field experiences -- not musings from a limited batch of courses.

P.S. For short holes -- try the postage stamp at Troon -- the 5th at Bandon Trails, there are a host of other examples. Jim could have done something along those lines -- a shame - because FT does start with four solid holes then you hit the wall with the 5th.

[Doug Wright]

Doug:

Here are a FEW FACTS you don't have at your disposal. I have personally played no less than eleven (11) Engh designs. I am quite aware of what the man has designed -- including short par-3's that work well -- see the qualities of the 3rd at Hawktree in Bismarck, ND and then compared it to the lame 5th hole at Fossil Trace and you can see where I base my info on and the hole reference I cited is just one example.

HAWKTREE'S 3RD IS 164 YARDS. HARDLY AN APT COMPARISON.

My opinions come from actual in-the-field experiences -- not musings from a limited batch of courses.

I KNOW YOU ARE A WELL-TRAVELED FELLOW MATT!

P.S. For short holes -- try the postage stamp at Troon -- the 5th at Bandon Trails, there are a host of other examples. Jim could have done something along those lines -- a shame - because FT does start with four solid holes then you hit the wall with the 5th.

YOU THINK JIM COULD HAVE REDONE THE POSTAGE STAMP ON THE LAND HE HAD? YOU'RE SMOKING SOME SERIOUS WEED THERE MATT...

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

The 3rd at Hawktree includes a minimum 50-foot drop so the effective yardage of 164 yards is much less so. So it plays quite short in the range you asked for previously.

Regarding the building of a like hole to Troon or better yet to the 5th at Bandon Trails -- I believe Jim's creative side could have come up with something far beyond the lame 5th hole now. The green there is as big as Texas and offers little incentive to be especially specific with the approach.

You see I believe Engh has demonstrated such abilties previously.

[Matt_Ward]

Want to thank a few alert folks here on GCA for the error I made on the 1st at Snowmass -- it is a par-5 not a par-4. I played the hole from the frontal markers because of some maintenance things taking place and erroneously concluded the hole is a par-4.

With that in mind I'd replace it with the 1st at Hawktree -- 410 yards and quite good for a starter.

I'm trying to add one more par-5 and a par-3 to the mix because generally when you play one of the Engh designs you do get the "extra" 5-par and 3-par in the mix.

If anyone has suggestions I'd like to know. I'm leaning to switching the 1st hole to either the 1st at Sanctuary or at Fossil Trace. That would leave me to replace one of the par-4's with a par-3.

Thanks ...

[Doug Ralston]

And still no one from the Michigan area can compare the holes at Tullymore to these?

Doug

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

Fair point.

I have not played Tullymore so I can't say.

But the ones I did list are all rather solid.

Would like to know of any candidates that others can add.

Thanks ...

P.S. I don't know if the key posters from MI have played more than a mere handful of Engh layouts in the mtg time zone area. Be interested in finding out.

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