[Matt_Ward]

I have had the good fortune in playing a fair sampling of the courses designed by Jim Engh -- the noted architect based in Colorado. To date I have played approximately eleven of his designs. I have outlined below my all-star listing of holes he has designed from the courses I have played.

For the purpose of clarification I have not played Tullymore so no holes are included from that layout.

The holes selected are as they appear on the card and I have tried to ensure a par-72 layout. In some instances I also posted an honorable mention hole because of its qualities.

Only two courses have three first team candidates -- Lakota Canyon Ranch and Pradera.

So here goes ...


1st hole -- Snowmass Club (4) 460 yds
HM Sanctuary (5) 604 yds & Fossil Trace (5) 575 yds
2nd hole -- Pradera (4) 432 yds
3rd hole -- Hawktree (3) 164 yds
4th hole -- Fossil Trace (4) 480 yds
5th hole -- Lakota Canyon Ranch (5) 556 yds HM Pradera (4) 456 yds
6th hole -- Black Rock (4) 428 yds
7th hole -- Lakota Canyon Ranch (3) 223 yds
8th hole -- Sanctuary (4) 380 yds HM Blackstone (4) 456 yds
9th hole -- Blackstone (5) 560 yds

10th hole -- Red Hawk Ridge (4) 440 yds
11th hole -- Pradera (4)  495 yds
12th hole -- Fossil Trace (5)  585 yds
13th hole -- Hawktree (3)  230 yds
14th hole -- Black Rock (3)  157 yds
15th hole -- Black Rock (4)  457 yds
16th hole -- Lakota Canyon Ranch (4)  416 yds
17th hole -- Redlands Mesa (3)  218 yds HM - Lakota Canyon Ranch (3)  219 yds
18th hole -- Pradera (5)  557 yds HM - Lakota Canyon Ranch (5)  557 yds.

Be most interested in any comments from the group.




 

 

[Matt_Ward]

Whoops -- one small error already.

Need to get "my" course to par-72 -- drop the delicious par-3 14th at Black Rock and insert the 400-yds par-4 14th at Redlands Mesa.

Thanks for the alert from those ever alert GCA observers.

[CHrisB]

Matt,

You have listed only one par 4 shorter than 416 yards--have you run across any world-class short par 4's (whether driveable in the 290-330 range, or something excellent in the 330-360 range like Pete Dye has done on occasion) designed by Jim Engh?

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

You may need to better understand where the bulk of where Engh's work is located.

We are talking Colorado -- you know the state with the higher elevations.

No doubt as Jim's portfolio begins to increase he will likely be in other areas -- like George, the work he is doing at Carne, etc, etc.

I can certainly review what other holes of the type you describe are possible inclusions.

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

A few key "short" holes can be included.

Among the more noted ones I can quickly remember and cite:

5th / Pradera (4) -- 352 yds
13th / Lakota Canyon (4) -- 387 yds
13th / Fossil Trace (4) -- 394 yds
4th / Redlands Mesa (4) -- 352 yds
16th / Sanctuary (4) -- 316 yds
13th / Sanctuary (3) -- 393 yds

[Adam Clayman]

Had the pleasure of meeting Jim Engh the other day.

He was fascinating to listen, to and he treats his Art with passion and zest. Jim focuses on fun, and tries to push that envelope.

Can't comment on Matt's exercise, because I haven't seen as much as Matt.  Surprise!

[Tim Taylor]

Sorry Matt, couldn't resist  



TimT

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I agree with 9 at Blackstone and 18 at Pradera as they are 2 really good 5pars.

[Jay Flemma]

Nice job getting it to = 5 par-5s and 5 par-3s.

Here's pix.



18 pradera



5 lakota



18 Lakota

[Dan_Callahan]

Matt,

Were the Pradera and Lakota 18th holes better than the 18th at Snowmass? The Snowmass finisher is really strong, with the huge downhill tee shot and the green that juts out into the water. The first time I played it, the hole was cut all the way back right—what an intimidating approach.

I also really liked 13, with the forced layup at the creek. One of the best greens on the course.

[cary lichtenstein]

The par 5 4th hole at Lakota should be mentioned as well as the 279  yard par 3 6th at Snowmass.

[Brad Swanson]

Matt,
   We've gone the proverbial 15 rounds over hole #12 at Fossil Trace here.  I can't ever get the search function to work very well here or I'd link the thread.  I don't like it much, and I know you do.  Maybe Jim could color code the stone pillars and award the player an "Extra Ball" ala pinball if you manage to hit a certain one.  I do like #4 and a few other alot there. though.

Cheers,
Brad

[Brian_Ewen]

How much of Jim Engh's work in Asia is his own hand ? .

I really enjoyed Dragon Hills in Ratchaburi , Thailand .

Plus I have played a few name designs that IMG built that were thought to be his hand as well , but wasn't sure .

[Tim Pitner]

I also recall hearing that Engh was behind the Portmarnock Hotel course credited to Langer.

Do I have that right and is there anything worthy of inclusion there?

[Doug Wright]

Matt,
   We've gone the proverbial 15 rounds over hole #12
at Fossil Trace here.  I can't ever get the search
function to work very well here or I'd link the thread.
I don't like it much, and I know you do.
Maybe Jim could color code the stone pillars
and award the player an "Extra Ball" ala
pinball if you manage to hit a certain one.
I do like #4 and a few other alot there. though.

Cheers,
Brad

Brad,

The object is to AVOID those rocks in the fairway
on Fossil Trace 12.   Talk about unique hazards...
I like the hole because it really is one of a kind,
though I've put a hard hat in my bag when I play there.

Here are a couple of photos of Fossil Trace 12:

[Kevin Edwards]

I also recall hearing that Engh was behind the Portmarnock Hotel course credited to Langer.

Do I have that right and is there anything worthy of inclusion there?

That course was done by Stan Eby not by Jim Engh..


Matt Ward and Jay Flemma-  You guys concentrate so much on Jim Engh.. How about Brian Silva?  His new designs look quite impressive and a lot more classical than what Jim Engh's appear to be.. Why does Brian get no love?

[Tim Pitner]

Kevin,

That's for the correction.  That didn't sound right to me, but then Engh is working on Carne . . . oh, forget it.

Is Engh over-using the squiggly bunkers?

I don't particularly like the look of them, but I'll give Engh credit for originality.  Now, maybe less so.  

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

Mea culpa on my part -- the par-5 at Lakota Canyon on the front side is the 4th hole -- not the 5th -- sorry about the mishap on my part and thanks to Cary for the proper ID.

It is a superb uphill hole and kudos to Engh and team for being able to provide such a winning creation there.

With that change made - I would add the 5th at Pradera -- the marvelous short par-4 that includes a delicious center-placed bunker and a green that hugs a huge mound to the right side of the putting surface.


Kevin Edwards:

Take a chill partner -- this thread is on Engh -- the man does solid work in many instances. No doubt the same applies to Silva but because he's located in the east where many of the GCA participants live it's far easier to see his work.

His top holes can be included as well. How bout you kick-off the discussion with your selections?

Doug W:

The rock slabs on #12 are native to the area. That's a plus in my mind -- they aren't some art work that was trucked in from some Tribeca or Soho art gallery store.

Second, if a road next to a hole is acceptable -- TOC's 17th -- then what Engh has done here works for me. Keep in mind this the so-called "pin-ball" effect you mention only happens for people who need to sharpen their aim.

Dan C:

I agree about the final at Snowmass, however, if you view the picture that's been posted by Jay on the 18th at Pradera you will see the numerous challenges you need to overcome. The hole doesn't surrender to the big tee shot and the center-placed bunker at Pradera's home hole is well done and quite severe, as it should be for those taking it on and losing the battle.

The 18th at Lakota Canyon barely finishes second and I have to say I have heard the comments -- specifically from my compadre Doug W -- that the hole is fairly limited in its playability and is too demanding for women players. Frankly, I think that objection can be overcome with an additional tee box placed far enough ahead to minimize the rigors of the extended carry that takes place now.

Snowmass is a fine ending hole -- but Pradera & Lakota are really first rate and merit more attention IMHO.

Tim Taylor:

Sorry about the non-pictures from my end -- love the graphic though !

[TaylorA]

From what I've seen in pictures and a site visit to his "Creek Club" at Reynolds, it appears he has an affinity for a particular bunker design. It's everywhere!

[Brad Swanson]

How would the Enghophiles feel if the same design of #12 at Fossil Trace was transplanted to a less rocky site and the rock spires were replaced with small groves of trees with the same dimensions?  No novelty, just design?  How does it rate then?

Cheers,
Brad

[Matt_Ward]

Brad:

I have no issue with isolated trees but bear in mind the trees can come down over time for a host of reasons -- the stones don't have the same dire issues the trees face.

One other thing -- have you played the hole in question or are you simply throwing forward your "Enghophiles" bait from the viewing of photos alone ?

I've played the hole -- the rocks have no impact on people who execute properly -- for all handicap levels.

[Kevin Edwards]

Matt Ward

Great Brian Silva Holes

#4 at Red Tail
#14 at Red Tail
#17 at Black Creek
#5 at Shaker Hills

[Brad Swanson]

Matt,
   I'll be frank.  I've played the hole.  Also, if I played the amount of golf you do I would smoke your ass something fierce.  
   The first time I played the hole there was no indication of where the green sat within all of the nooks and crannies.  I hit what I thought was a good shot from 240 with a 4 iron to be greeted with a 15 foot rock wall betweeen me and the green a mere 20ish yards left.  I had to play backwards some 30+ yards to actually have a shot to the green.  I think after knowing which cranny the green is in makes the hole more tolerable, but the first play is too much of crapshoot for a reachable par 5.

Cheers,
Brad
   

[Tim Pitner]

Matt,

Any thoughts on the bunkering?

I know you've said that Engh is over-using containment mounding around greens.

Is he going to the well too many times with the squiggly bunkers?

[Matt_Ward]

Hey Brad:

You talk a good game on a blog site about your ability partner -- next time I'm in town how bout you and I meet and see what transpires.   The loser can buy the Coors !

Hey Brad -- you bitch about the rocks -- how about the most famous of man-made intrusions -- The Road Hole? Please knock yourself out with logic regarding the latter as you have with the former at FT's 12th.

Tim P:

The squiggly bunkers are no different than someone using railroad ties and the like -- ditto pot bunkers. You can insert the name of that architect who made them fashionable here in the States.

I like the squiggly bunkers -- not everywhere mind you -- because the amount of uncertainty when you hit into them. There's no guarantee of a flat lie -- flat stance -- or even that the ball might be playable. If you played the 18th at Pradera you might find them well placed because a long hitter like myself needs to think very carefully about what they do when playing that hole. Check out the squiggly bunkers towards the front of the 1st at FT -- they are quite effective -- like I said -- not just repeated for the sake of repetition.

Kevin:

That very nice you can list a few Silva holes. Guess what? This is the Engh thread -- place it on your own with a complete 18 in somewhat the same format I did for Engh and I'll be glad to read it and throw forward some of my recommendations.

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