Dismal River Pics

[Jason Blasberg]

Matt:

What would you estimate is the average fairway width and also the average corridor width (before you hit the fescue).
Jason

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

It varies -- you can go aywhere from 40-60 yards depending upon the hole. The high junk-like grass is away from the general playing areas. Of course you have guys who could hit Oklahoma from North Carolina too.

On a few of the holes Jack created a bowl-like ball-gathering atmosphere -- the 1st is one of them -- the 14th is another.

[Jason Blasberg]

I think I once started a hole at Shinnecock and finished at Pacific Dunes  

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

There's pkenty of room and to Jack and his team's credit you need to work the ball into the more favored positions when playing. For example, the 2nd fairway is enormous across -- likely in the 50-60 yards area -- but the best side is towards the right -- although there is a mega fall-off on that side if you push it too far.

Ditto what Jack did with the downhill dog-leg right par-5 9th. You can play safe to the left but you can possibly run out of room on that side. The further right you go the carry simply increases.

Clearly, the focus on Dismal River is in driving the ball well and best of all the width allows for mistakes to be made but such mistakes come with an appropriate proportionate toll.

[Jason Blasberg]

Clearly, the focus on Dismal River is in driving the ball well and best of all the width allows for mistakes to be made but such mistakes come with an appropriate proportionate toll.

Sounds like a great combo of challenge and fun.

[RJ_Daley]

A very enjoyable photo essay of the new course.  Unfortunately, I viewed about3/4 of the photos this morning, and when I came back to click on the link tonight, I could no longer access it.  But, from what I saw, the photos seemed obviously focused on depicting the native blow=out style bunkers, and it was very difficult or impossible (at least for me) to determine which were natural blow-outs that were cleaned up a bit, and which were made.  The skyline potato chip green looks amazing.  I still feel that the groundskeeping staff will have their hands full developing ways to manage the winter sand migrations and such.  But, hopefully, everyone in the sand hills will pull together and help each other out with regional maintenance issues, and therefore make all the new courses that much better with sharing info and ideas.

My only comment from looking at the photos, is I might like to see a few more bunkers within the confines of the fairways.  But that is a quibble, and there seems to be a few.  I think that can be overdone.  But, I wonder if a few more in this design might have been interesting.  I think one would have to be brain dead not to get juiced about a prospect to play Dismal River.  It looks  great.

Congratulations to the design, build, maintenance team and developers.

[Jay Flemma]

Matt, I found it too narrow at SOME points and really tough to find the hiddeen width off the tee the first time.  The stretch from 10-13 was a little too quirky and severe for my liking.

I thought the point of building on sandy soil was to encourage the ground game...there is little to no ground game at Dismal...its really severe carries and aerial assault.  plus SOME of the greens are a little too much.

I really think they moved alot more than just 15,000 cubic yards of earth to build the place...

[Jay Flemma]

(Adam C posting on Jay's computer)

Jack clearly took a positive step with his effort at DR.

HOWEVER,

There seems to be little justification for what he did do.

Hitting good drives from the appropriate teeing ground, yielded more lost balls than I wish to admit to.

A few of the dogleg lefts resembled looks found at Pairie Dunes, IMO. Hitting over knobs similarly placed gaurded by a bunker or two that tries to transition to native.

I really dont see how a course, where the architect walks off after his first playing, decrying the aspects that need changing, can be considered all world.

[Jay Flemma]

(Jay back at the wheel)

I have to agree, I found Dismal woefully overdone and not at all authentic to the land around it.  Instead of blending well witrh the surrounds, I felt like I was riding an amusement park ride.  It started OK...I especially like 4,5,6,, but 10 where I was excited to see the bunker in the middle of green like 6 at Riviera, this was so enormous with so many levels and minipods and ramps up and down that it made a mockery of the original at Riviera...almost like it was trying to lampoon it.

I think purists would be sadly disappointed with the presentation of the cours eand with how it brings down the atmosphere of the whole region.

[Matt_Ward]

Jay:

You must be doing some bending of the elbow if you think the 10th is some sort of lampoon on the 6th at Riviera. I think it's very well done because the green is sectionalized and the player needs to hit the proper club to the section where the pin is located. Nothing wrong or out of step with that in my mind. In fact -- I think what Nicklaus and team have done there works very well.

Jay -- when you say lost balls I have to ask how far to the side did you hit them. There's plenty of room at Dismal River -- so much that Jack and team were very generous given the aspect on how wind can blow through the property. Maybe you just need a lesson or two to straighten out the swing.

The only real aspect that needs attending to is the 13th and Nicklaus and team have said that. Last point when you say how can any course be labeled all-worlld when people are making noise for additional changes.

Jay -- simple answer. No course is ever perfect. Tweaking the layout clearly is necessary -- as it is with all courses. The sum of what is at DR is very solid -- one of the 2-3 best Nicklaus courses I have played. If people understand their limitations and play from the appropriate tees they can max out their enjoyment. However, if people decide to swim in the deep end when they don't know how to swim the net result will be a fast drowning. I don't blame the course for someone's personal stupidity -- I blame them.

Last point -- you speak to the "purists" as if this group somehow magically conveys special status to the course itself. IMHO, the "purists" you speak about, can sometime be so focused on their narrow band of courses that they forget or simply ignore the continued evolution of what Nicklaus and his team have done. It is very clear to me at least that certain people, both here on this board and elsewhere, simply pan Nicklaus as being anything other than a superb player.

The Dismal River layout is far from bringing down the immediate region as you state -- frankly -- I believe the future plans that DR is contemplating will accelerate the interest of a great many golfers who likely would never be able to access the area for a whole host of reasons.

On this one Jay -- you're all wet partner.

R.J.

There were some bunker areas that were created by man. The last par-3 (15th) is one example that was mentioned to me when I played there.

[Kevin Edwards]

Jay:

You must be doing some bending of the elbow if you think the 10th is some sort of lampoon on the 6th at Riviera. I think it's very well done because the green is sectionalized and the player needs to hit the proper club to the section where the pin is located. Nothing wrong or out of step with that in my mind. In fact -- I think what Nicklaus and team have done there works very well.

Matt Ward- If I recall I played at an event at the CC of Purchase where there was a bunker that bisected the green there (I believe the hole is on the right as your do the entrance road to the club).. Subsequent to that I believe the green might be smaller now so that the bunker is just a center hazard right before it.  The point being is it wouldnt be the first time Nicklaus Design did this..

Jack had this to say about Purchase.

"When I was asked to design the Country Club of Purchase, I considered it a rare opportunity and experience for me to be able to design a course in an area so rich in long established, historic and famous clubs. Having the chance to create something truly special and realizing it would probably be one of the last courses designed in the area, I was both excited and challenged. The owners provided me with a magnificent piece of virtually untouched land. The design incorporates the rolling terrain, a variety of wetlands, and holes framed by trees which act as a canopy. The result is something I hope members and future generations will enjoy for both its natural beauty and golfing experience far beyond my lifetime."

- Jack Nicklaus

If Jack thinks that land was magnificent, he must have visited Liberty National before it was built!  The wetland obstructions and corridors alone are a horror.

[Matt_Ward]

Kevin --

Little homework assignment for you ...

Do yourself a huge favor -- get out a calendar and tell me when Purchase opened ?

The site for Purchase was horrible for a host of reasons. I understand that Jack, like any other architect, needs to hype a client's project -- what the hell do you expect him to say --that the ground there is a disaster ?

Fast forward the calendar and look at what Nicklaus and crew have designed since Purchase. The improvements are considerable IMHO.

[Kevin Edwards]

Matt Ward-

Little comment for you fellow--  lose the rhetoric of a demogogue.  I don't appreciate your posting tone talking down to me, especially when I was agreeing with you.  Purchase is 10 years old, I know that b/c I am friendly with a member who has been there since the get go. My point was this is not the first bunker like Riv 6 they've built, agreeing with your statement to Jay Flemma.

[B. Mogg]

What are the odds on 26.5 million square miles of land to get a windmill on a hole at both Sandhills and Dismal River ?

[Matt_Ward]

Kevin:

Thanks for the "fellow" address ...

If you don't like the reply then demonstrate a capacity to understand how the Nicklaus focus of architecture / site development has come LONG WAY since the Purchase situation. Why post a quote from Nicklaus, when in point of fact, all architects generally say such things even if they built a course in the middle of the ocean.

You think throwing a quote from a good ways back demonstrates something. Really? Did you ever of the word context to describe something? Or how about the fact that the work of architects can evolve -- both up and down?

If you say you agree with me / re: the center-placed bunker situation -- then I hope you will be in agreement with me that obfuscating the matter with the Purchase example does little, if anything, to place the Dismal River situation into the proper context of where Nicklaus and his design team are today.

End of story.

[Kevin Edwards]

Kevin:

Thanks for the "fellow" address ...

If you don't like the reply then demonstrate a capacity to understand how the Nicklaus focus of architecture / site development has come LONG WAY since the Purchase situation. Why post a quote from Nicklaus, when in point of fact, all architects generally say such things even if they built a course in the middle of the ocean.

You think throwing a quote from a good ways back demonstrates something. Really? Did you ever of the word context to describe something? Or how about the fact that the work of architects can evolve -- both up and down?

If you say you agree with me / re: the center-placed bunker situation -- then I hope you will be in agreement with me that obfuscating the matter with the Purchase example does little, if anything, to place the Dismal River situation into the proper context of where Nicklaus and his design team are today.

End of story.

Matt-  I don't think I could quiet you even if we were bound together in a Jim Engh designed crematorium facing the prospect of meeting our maker.

[Gene Greco]

Matt-  I don't think I could quiet you even if we were bound together in a Jim Engh designed crematorium facing the prospect of meeting our maker.

Matt, you gotta admit, THAT'S funny!

Might be the funniest thing ever written on this board aside from a Gib Papazian contribution or two.





   

[ed_getka]

bmogg,
   There are a lot of those windmill pumps out in that area of the world from what I've seen. Plus, the one at SH isn't really on a hole, but is just made to look like that in some pictures.
 
Tom S,
   Thanks for providing the pictures, looks pretty cool to me. It will be interesting to hear how the course matures and I see feedback from people who I have golfed with.

[Jay Flemma]

The lost balls thing was adam on my puter, but he's right...the contours are so severe, they have to dial it down a notch.

Honestly, Matt I KNOW I'm not all wet on this...there are SOME really good things...4,5,6, and the finish of 16,17,18, but 10-13 rre just goofy and too tough with the aerial requirements.

You could've built that course anywhere.  Why build that on sandy soil?  Why not use the sandy soil for what it's supposed to be used for in golf - the ground game.

There is no ground game there, and the holes and bunkering are unnatural.  That being said, if they slow the greens and fairways it would be more enjoyable.

Please somebody post puictures of 10 green,,,it is just goofy.  Way oevr the top and unnecessary.  That was a parody of Yale!

[Jason Blasberg]

Jay:

While I preface this by saying I've not played the course I can't believe there's as little ground game at DR as you state.

I also can say that while I've only seen pictures, pictures are often enough for me to see positive things and positive things is about all I see in the photos of DR that I've seen.

I'm actually a bit shocked to hear you say they could have built that course anywhere . . . you sure we're talking about the same place?

Last I think it's only fair to disclose what tees you played and what you shot in relation to your handicap.  It looks like you could land jet planes in many of those fairways so I can't see lost balls being that big a deal there.  

Jason

[Jason Blasberg]

Jay Flemma:

Out of curiousity have you played Prairie Dunes and if so which is more penal off the tee, PD or DR?

What did you think of the ground game options at PD and what do you generally consider to be an "aerial requirement?"

There are a number of holes at PD where aerial shots are likely the better play but where the ground game is very much an option (1, 3, 5, 6, 9, 11, 12, 14, 16 and 18 to name  few approaches).  I'd have to be Helen Keller to not see similar type of ground game options in the photos  DR.

It's also quite possible that an aerial approach is preferred but a ground game recovery shot is preferred if you miss the green.  

[Jason Blasberg]

(Jay back at the wheel)

I think purists would be sadly disappointed with the presentation of the cours eand with how it brings down the atmosphere of the whole region.

You lead me to conclude that you don't have a clue about what you're talking about by making comments like this one . . . what the hell was in the water out there today??

[Adam Clayman]

It looks like you could land jet planes in many of those fairways so I can't see lost balls being that big a deal there.  

Jason,

We played the members tees. Based on Matt Wards warning about playing the appropriate tees I was looking to play a 6000 yard course/ I wanted to enjoy the day. Since the options were for 6600 or 5100 We played the members tees at 66. With many elevated tees, whatever width is negated. The corridors were not ample for the 30 moh wind ecountered. But thats not it! On more than one occasion, drives found the fairway, were seen by us and the caddy, bouncing in the fairway, and then never found. If the turns are too close, even for a short knocker like me, they are way too narrow for anyone but the best of golfers. So, please belive that your above supposition needs to be re-thought. Balls get lost and good men die.
Also, They insist on a forecaddie, and when he cant find them, they are lost.

A major part of the problem is the surrounds. The lushest longest flora and fauna I've ever seen in the region. Nowhere similar to the areas one observes on the long ride up from North Platte. Same with the bunkers, they have little resemblence to the blowouts visible in all directions or the ones we saw from Ben's porch yesterday.

[Jason Blasberg]

It looks like you could land jet planes in many of those fairways so I can't see lost balls being that big a deal there.  

Jason,

On more than one occasion, drives found the fairway, were seen by us and the caddy, bouncing in the fairway, and then never found. If the turns are too close, even for a short knocker like me, they are way too narrow for anyone but the best of golfers. So, please belive that your above supposition needs to be re-thought. Balls get lost and good men die.
Also, They insist on a forecaddie, and when he cant find them, they are lost.

That's really bizarre about fairway balls being lost, is it possible the course was so firm and fast you hit it through all the doglegs?  

There's a big difference between losing a ball after hitting it through a dogleg and losing a ball that's been struck into the fairway.  

Adam, did you find DR more penal than Prairie Dunes as far as a gunch to gunch comparison?

It also sounds to me that DR could have suffered in both your eyes  b.c of a Sand Hills hangover.   Was it that contrived?  I really can't see that from the pics and I've downloaded over 100 of them.  Man I wish I had a gulf stream in the garage . . . .

[RJ_Daley]

Wow, in reading through these latest posts, it is a real puzzle.  I have to agree with Jason that the photos just don't look like the narrowness and angles that are conducive for that much agravation of loosing that many balls bounding to the high thick native.

In fact, if the native is that high and thick, which isn't natural to that area, then I have to believe there was a great deal of fert and irrigation drift into those areas to ignite that much growth.  

Yet, I also know that Adam has a keen eye on this stuff, and after all he is the one on sight, not just going by photos.  So, it appears there is more here than meets the photographic lens.  

It sounds like good grist for the mill in coming months and seasons, to sort out whether DR is up to snuff with what we expect from the sand hills.

Oh boy, wait until the Prairie Club in Valentine gets going.  Then we'll really have a round table debating and comparing.